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Wednesday, February 04, 2009
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Render Me Speechless

I've been meaning to blog about this for a little while now, but I really haven't really had the time until now.  It seems that Obama has quickly backtracked on one of his executive orders, as shown by Boots and Sabers.  On January 23rd, he ordered a ban on torture and rendition, and closed down the secret CIA prison network overseas that we really know nothing about.  On the 31st, he re-authorized renditions.  Everybody seems confused... mostly the liberal organizations who backed Obama's stance on the torture, like Human Rights Watch.  They've gone from saying that any use of rendition and torture under the Bush Administration was bad, to saying that under limited circumstanced, it's OK to use rendition under the Obama Administration.

Glenn Greenwald even went out of his way to explain the nuance of the situation.  You see, now we find out that there are actually two different types of renditions.  Really, the liberals were only against extraordinary rendition, not plain old ordinary ones.  Though the definition of what makes something extraordinary is somewhat vague.  More importantly, Greenwald doesn't think its appropriate to bash Obama for the rendition program when we don't know he's actually done it!  Granted, he's authorized it, but apparently that's not important.  Why would he authorize it if he didn't intend to do it, especially when he promised to stop the program?  That doesn't make any sense.

But then Greenwald does the amazing.  He says:

Second, I have a question for those who believe that rendition, in all cases (even when it's not used to disappear individuals or send individuals to countries where they will be tortured), is inappropriate and wrong:

Suppose (for the sake of discussion) that: (a) the U.S. learns exactly where Osama bin Laden is located in Pakistan; (b) there is ample evidence that bin Laden (i) perpetrated the 9/11 attacks and (ii) is in the advanced stages of planning new imminent attacks on the U.S.; and (c) the Pakistani Government is either unwilling or unable to apprehend bin Laden in order to extradite him to the U.S. for trial.  Further suppose that efforts to compel the Pakistanis to do so through the U.N. are blocked (because, say, China or Russia vetoes any actions).

What's amazing to me here is this is just the sort of case that people make for torture.  They create a wild set of facts that won't happen in order to justify something that is actually used much more commonly for ordinary people.  I've talked about these people before.  For instance, there was this Canadian gentleman.  He was disappeared to Syria, where some pretty horrific things were done to him, and that's just one example.

And that phrase right there is a pretty scary thing.  Disappeared.  You see, people seem to automatically argue about rendition, and go straight to torture.  But let's leave torture out of it completely.  Let's just say we grab a guy off the street and throw him in a locked room forever.  No torture, just no escape.  You've been found guilty by someone with no defense, and we're just going to lock you away.

The problem with rendition, as I've argued before, is innocence.  The entire reason for most of our basic judicial rights, is to protect the innocent, and guard against mistakes.  It gives a person to stand before a neutral party, declare their innocence, and force the jailer to prove their guilt.  When someone is disappeared somewhere though, none of that applies.

Now then, if someone wants to argue that we should be able to go into another sovereign nation, and extradite a person we believe to be guilty to stand trial here in the United States, I think a good argument can be made.  But what Obama re-authorized was the rendition of persons to other countries, where no such judicial protections may occur.

Somehow, as long as these people never step foot on American soil, even if we do the taking, that absolves us of any guilt we may have about not honoring what we have always considered inalienable rights that belong to all men.  It was wrong to have rendition under Clinton, Bush, and it is wrong to have it under Obama.

# Posted at 7:03 PM by Nick  |  Comment Feed Link 3 Comments  |  No Trackbacks

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Wednesday, February 04, 2009 9:02:38 PM (Central Standard Time, UTC-06:00)
Also shows what was said before he took office by many in the military and the intelligence communities, A president has access to more information and on day 1 than he expects and some of our understanding of covert or secret policies will inevitably change with new information. Frequently presidents reverse stands on campaign planks immediately after entering office simple because they don't have all of the facts as senators much less as private citizens like you or me who's only understanding is shaped by movies and the media. Secrets are just that secrets, some good some bad, but "need to know" does save lives. I'll not argue the merits of torture as it has been militarily proven less than successful in the accuracy of information over millennium, however modern views of torture may be misguided, In the military we experienced discomfort techniques first hand so that we would know how to deal with them (I'll leave the name of the school out of this) However discomfort as a person with first and knowledge from the receiving end in my opinion is not torture. We have not and do not sanction torture. If we consider torture to be making a person strip, wearing a womans dress as a man, Having ones head immersed in water, insulting their mother, father, religion, or any other inane insult; we had better plan on a lot of new jail cells, because half the elementary, jr high, sr high, college frats, drinking buddies, sports teams, infunitum....... will need 3 hot's and a cot from the government for a long time. (I'll leave out the fact that some men would find it rather entertaining to be forcefully striped had a bag put over their head and lead around by a woman on a dog leash. That belongs in another forum.) Maybe in our efforts to civilize our selfs we have lost the art of civility.

Jojo Rant Out!
Jojo ;)
Thursday, February 05, 2009 9:01:39 AM (Central Standard Time, UTC-06:00)
As I posted in comment 13 over there, things aren't as clear cut as people are saying.

http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2009/02/0 2/renditions/
Thursday, February 05, 2009 6:15:05 PM (Central Standard Time, UTC-06:00)
It seems that Obama has quickly backtracked on one of his executive orders
It only "seems" that way because of some bad reporting. See hilzoy's explanation here; it's long, but she lays out exactly where the reporting gets the story wrong. For example:

Obama orders people to comply with the Convention Against Torture, and that Convention states that we cannot return people to states where there are substantial grounds to believe that they will be tortured. [. . .] So in addition to announcing that the administration will obey the Convention Against Torture, the administration will also study not whether to send detainees off to be tortured, but how to ensure that our policies are not intended to result in their torture, and will not result in their torture. This seems to me like a very clear renunciation of the policy of sending people to third countries to be tortured. His executive order also precludes any kind of secret detention of prisoners, and thus "secret abductions and transfers of prisoners" [. . .]. Note that this has no exceptions for short-term detainees whom we quickly hand off to someone else.

The order does not ban "rendition" per se, especially since we are bound by law to do it sometimes. Instead, it puts a stop to the kind of rendition that the Bush Administration used to do that made rendition a dirty word.
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