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Friday, August 22, 2008
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John McCain Was Never Tortured in Vietnam

At least that's the argument that George Bush makes:

In all the discussion of John McCain's recently recovered memory of a religious epiphany in Vietnam, one thing has been missing. The torture that was deployed against McCain emerges in all the various accounts. It involved sleep deprivation, the withholding of medical treatment, stress positions, long-time standing, and beating. Sound familiar?

According to the Bush administration's definition of torture, McCain was therefore not tortured.

Cheney denies that McCain was tortured; as does Bush. So do John Yoo and David Addington and George Tenet. In the one indisputably authentic version of the story of a Vietnamese guard showing compassion, McCain talks of the agony of long-time standing. A quarter century later, Don Rumsfeld was putting his signature to memos lengthening the agony of "long-time standing" that victims of Bush's torture regime would have to endure. These torture techniques are, according to the president of the United States, merely "enhanced interrogation."

No war crimes were committed against McCain. And the techniques used are, according to the president, tools to extract accurate information. And so the false confessions that McCain was forced to make were, according to the logic of the Bush administration, as accurate as the "intelligence" we have procured from "interrogating" terror suspects. Feel safer?

So then, is there really anything special about the fact that John McCain was a prison of war?  After all, improsoning captured soldiers while the war continues is something that all sides do.  And apparently the Vietnamese treated John McCain in a fair, reasonable way.  John McCain endorsed those techniques himself when he voted for the Military Commissions Act.

But then you know what they say about the cycle of abuse.  Those who are abused turn out to be abusers later on in life.

Update: Do read the comments for added context.

# Posted at 3:44 PM by Nick  |  Comment Feed Link 16 Comments  |  No Trackbacks

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Friday, August 22, 2008 4:25:44 PM (Central Daylight Time, UTC-05:00)
John McCain suffered true torture. He had his shoulder and arms broken, a bayonet thrust into him, was beaten with broken limbs by interrogators, was not given medical care, was left to sit in his own vomit and feces, and was left to die if it weren't for who his father was. He was also in solitary confinement for two years. Here are a couple of excerpts from his own account, the first happening shortly after his father became the Commander of the Pacific forces:

For almost two months, nothing happened. Then the punishment sessions began. I was hauled into an empty room and kept there for four days. At intervals, the guards returned to administer beatings.

One guard held me while the others pounded away.

They cracked several of my ribs and broke a couple of teeth. Weakened by beatings and dysentery, with my right leg again almost useless, I found it impossible to stand.


Here he describes one of his fellow prisoners:

We strongly believed that some PoWs were tortured to death and most were seriously mistreated.

One man, Dick Stratton, had huge infected scars on his arms from rope torture. His thumbnails had been torn off and he had been burned with cigarettes.


Are you sure you want to make this argument?
BJ Lillo
Friday, August 22, 2008 4:34:18 PM (Central Daylight Time, UTC-05:00)
I am well aware of this history. Part of this is a retorical argument (and maybe a poor one). Though the reality is that we HAVE shipped prisoners off to other countries where this type of torture has been performed on them. I have blogged about those cases as well. Those have been deemed acceptable too... apparently not torture.
Friday, August 22, 2008 4:37:23 PM (Central Daylight Time, UTC-05:00)
If you want to make the argument that, based on what happened to McCain that we clearly tortured captives, I'd agree. Of course we torture captives. To be honest, I expect that, and in certain cases, accept it.

But to say McCain wasn't tortured or was treated fairly is bullshit. How you can come to that conclusion is beyond me.

More than this, though, is your closing sentence:

But then you know what they say about the cycle of abuse. Those who are abused turn out to be abusers later on in life.

What is that supposed to mean or infer?
Friday, August 22, 2008 4:41:19 PM (Central Daylight Time, UTC-05:00)
If you read this blog enough Jimi, you know that I've always been a strong advocate against torture... even water boarding. The point of course is to re-iterate that in light of the experience of John McCain.

As for my last comment, that goes directly to the fact that he spoke strongly against torture in all forms, including waterboarding, and then voted for the Military Commissions Act, which among other things, allowed for those interrogation techniques to take place.
Friday, August 22, 2008 4:51:41 PM (Central Daylight Time, UTC-05:00)
The article you quoted has nothing to do with prisoners we released to other countries. The author is clearly making the case that what our interrogators do is just as bad as what McCain endured. That is ridiculous.
BJ Lillo
Friday, August 22, 2008 4:53:29 PM (Central Daylight Time, UTC-05:00)
So, voting is a form of abuse?
Friday, August 22, 2008 4:55:58 PM (Central Daylight Time, UTC-05:00)
If you read this blog enough Jimi, you know that I've always been a strong advocate against torture... even water boarding.


You worded that sentence pretty poorly. You seem to be confusing waterboarding with torture.
BJ Lillo
Friday, August 22, 2008 4:56:27 PM (Central Daylight Time, UTC-05:00)
Fine, then. Be against torture. But demeaning what happened to McCain to try and make your point is disingenuous.
Friday, August 22, 2008 5:17:29 PM (Central Daylight Time, UTC-05:00)
I worded it just as I wanted to... I believe water boarding to be a form of torture.

And Jimi, I don't demean what happened to McCain. It's a form of making an argument called sarcasm. And no, voting in and of itself is not abuse, but it does mean he's responsible for any abuse that results.. If two people vote to hire an assassin, but don't do the actual killing, are they not still responsible for the murder if they vote yes? Likewise, someone who votes Yes to a law that results in some sort of abuse is responsible for that abuse.
Friday, August 22, 2008 6:09:55 PM (Central Daylight Time, UTC-05:00)
Your sarcasm needs work, in my opinion.

No. I don't think because of McCain's vote he is responsible for torture. First, he's not the only guy to have voted. Second, to me, that's kind of like holding Smith and Wesson responsible for a crime where their gun was used. Using that logic, many . . . most Democrats are directly responsible for the war in Iraq. Pulling one guy out of the fray to blame is a bit of a reach. Plus, my guess is that what was done to him is not what's being done to our prisoners. He was in solitary for two years! We get upset because, OMG, we demeaned a few POW's.

I'm not making excuses or trying to say that "questionable tactics" weren't used. It's just that there's a huge difference between what McCain voted on and what he believed would be tactically used, and what might have been done by those in direct contact with POW's. You make it seem that McCain supports the mistreatment of our POW's. I don't know that you know that to be true.
Friday, August 22, 2008 6:13:24 PM (Central Daylight Time, UTC-05:00)
First of all, all who voted yes are responsible for their votes. If people are not responsible for their votes, then where is the accountability? That's ludicrous to suggest that an individual is not responsible for the votes that they make while in office.

Secondly, the reason I single our John McCain is because, A. he is more visible, B. he used to speak against it and changed his opinion when it was politically expedient, and C. because I feel like it.

And if he does not condone the mistreatment of POW's, then why the vote on a law that codifies into law that these types of techniques can be used?
Friday, August 22, 2008 6:51:39 PM (Central Daylight Time, UTC-05:00)
I like your C answer. I can deal with that.

We're not talking about a person being responsible for their votes. We're talking about a person's vote being responsible for actions as a result of their vote. Big difference.

Let's say a senator votes for capitol punishment. First, he's a representative. He elected to do the will of the people who voted him in to office. I know that's fantasy. But, work with me here. Maybe he ain't keen on the notion of capitol punishment but he votes "yes" assuming the courts will do their part in the process and that executions will be handled in as humane manner as possible.

Then we hear about an incident in a small town little heard of where they give the a prisoner the electric chair instead of lethal injection. They argue they didn't have the physicians available to properly administer a lethal injection . . . and since capitol punishment was rules legal, they thought they'd bend the rules a bit.

Se where I'm going? Is that senator responsible for what happened? In my opinion, no. That's where I think we're at with McCain. Clearly what McCain feels is torture and what he deems acceptable is different from your opinion. You don't agree. Fine. As I said, I like your C answer. At least it's honest. But trying to hold McCain responsible for the abuses that have been committed by a scant few in the military is reaching. McCain didn't voted on mistreatment. The bill is mostly about detaining. What's at odds for some is the provision that protects those who engaged in mistreatment . . . not that it condones the action. I think there's a big difference.
Friday, August 22, 2008 7:02:15 PM (Central Daylight Time, UTC-05:00)
I don't believe your capital punishment example is a good one, mostly because we're not talking about a few mistreatments here. What I'm holding him responsible for, in your example, is the capital punishment itself in general, not its mistaken implementation in one particular case. The Military Commissions Act was passed after many of the techniques and problems had already come to light, so he knew full well ahead of time what was being codified into law.
Friday, August 22, 2008 8:23:48 PM (Central Daylight Time, UTC-05:00)
Well, I don't think your murder for hire is a good example.

I know I am but what are you?

That's fine. But, it still wasn't a vote on the mistreatment of POW's. Hence, your intitial assertion:

John McCain endorsed those techniques himself when he voted for the Military Commissions Act.

is wrong.
Friday, August 22, 2008 8:33:16 PM (Central Daylight Time, UTC-05:00)
And, as you said, the Act was passed AFTER many things had already came to light. So, he's responsible with his vote for something that already happened?
Thursday, September 04, 2008 8:11:49 PM (Central Daylight Time, UTC-05:00)
Are you some pinko commie or what? Come on man how can you talk trash about a great American such as John Mccain. Your argument of his torture status sounds like you did alot of book work, congradulations. You took the words of some other pinko losers, and made them your own.
Tony Raney
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