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Thursday, April 10, 2008
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The Folly of Proxy Arguments

I first read this post by dad29 yesterday (via Jay) and it frankly made me so upset, that I posted a very restrained comment, and then decided I couldn't post here for at least a day until I calmed down.  Of course, re-reading that post, along with his follow up (also via Jay), has me very angry again.  The subject is women in the military, and the current statistics regarding incidents of rape between male and female members of the military:

The scope of the problem was brought into acute focus for me during a visit to the West Los Angeles VA Healthcare Center, where I met with female veterans and their doctors. My jaw dropped when the doctors told me that 41% of female veterans seen at the clinic say they were victims of sexual assault while in the military, and 29% report being raped during their military service.

So?

This isn't shocking, this is entirely predictable. It was predicted, as it was one of the many reasons that sane individuals have opposed women serving in the military from the very start.

Fact: Women do NOT belong in the military. Sure, some have been heroic--but that's merely playing percentages. After all, some men have been heroic, too.

In his follow up post, dad29 states the following:

So with the case of "females in the military." That happens to be an attempt to contradict nature, and the consequences were laid out in lavender in the (linked) supporting news story.

"Conservatives" who object to the post clearly accept as 'normative' the militarization of women, which is the direct cause of using quotation marks when characterizing their philosophical bent.

Liberals are so blinded (or intellectually bereft) that they actually see the post as some sort of endorsement of assault.

Frankly I don't know where to begin with this.  On its face, dad29's original post, and even his follow up seem to express the idea that it's the woman's fault for being raped because she chose to join the military.  He denies this in the follow up, and also in various comment threads, but I just can't read his posts and not come up with very much of an alternate theory.

The real problem is that he chose a poor proxy argument.  dad29 clearly thinks women don't belong in the military for various reasons.  So when he saw a new item which talked about a problem regarding women in the military, he decided it was another good data point to use.  The problem is that the "issue" he decided to use is one that has significant moral repercussions.  By suggesting that the rape of women is reason to keep them out of the military implicitly says various things which are damning of dad29 personally, which he makes no real effort to refute, and in some ways are strengthened by his follow on post.

First it suggests that the rape is somehow justified by their being there.  This idea is what I find most highly offensive.  His follow on post which somehow suggests that some sort of natural law made this all predictable is disgusting at best.  Men do not rape women.  Monsters rape women.  The entire premise of his post suggests that the military is filled with monsters instead of heroes serving their country.  It also suggests that being in the military, and sacrificing certain things because of it, excuses rape somehow.

I should also point out that I find it amusing for a devout Catholic to argue that somehow these individuals don't have free will (the ultimate gift from God) to choose good acts over evil acts, and that somehow the nature of men and women in closer quarters makes it inevitable.  Of course, this small amount of amusement is vastly overwhelmed by my moral disgust.  There is never an excuse for rape.  And this entire discussion wreaks of making excuses for it.  Next we'll see dad29 suggesting that women in the Middle East who don't wear the hijab deserve to be stoned to death, because they violated some sort of natural law regarding the place of women in that society, and after all, what did they expect to happen?

There is no natural law that makes rape acceptable.  People have the freedom to choose whether to respect women or not, and those who choose not to should be punished to the greatest extent of the law.  Suggesting that men are not capable of doing this ought to offend the sensibility and morality of every good man on this Earth.  Suggesting that men in the military are incapable of doing this sullies the reputation of people who rightly should be considered heroes in this country.  Just the very idea that someone who is serving to protect this country would choose to violate and harm a fellow service member (nay, citizen), and that somehow this is to be expected?!  It boggles my mind.  The fact that these actions seem to be condoned by the military brass is shocking.  What needs to be investigated are those cover ups, not the fact that women are there in the first place.  After all, if you remove women from the military without looking at the cover ups regarding rape investigations, would dad29 find rapes by servicemen against civilian populations where the military is posted to be acceptable and expected?

The true folly with the proxy argument is that the debate argues different things.  dad29 is really arguing that women shouldn't be in the military, while all the people arguing with him are arguing the rape of women in the military.  These are entirely two different topics.  So while they argue that rape is wrong, he argues that women in the military is wrong, and everyone mistakes one argument for the other.  I'm probably doing the same thing.  But by creating such a poor proxy argument in the first place, dad29 deserves every bit of flack he is getting.  Rape is always wrong.  Period.  Tying it's occurrence to some other result you think is desirable is just plain stupid.

Emily Mills has a much more rationally written, and less angry post on all of this that is also worth reading.

# Posted at 10:36 AM by Nick  |  Comment Feed Link 12 Comments  |  No Trackbacks

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Friday, April 11, 2008 9:29:39 AM (Central Daylight Time, UTC-05:00)
dad29 is really arguing that women shouldn't be in the military, while all the people arguing with him are arguing the rape of women in the military. These are entirely two different topics. So while they argue that rape is wrong, he argues that women in the military is wrong, and everyone mistakes one argument for the other

Correct.

But the logical inference from the stats (horrific as they are) is that Clinton & Co. made the wrong decision. Unfortunately there is no 'comparative data' from the pre-Clinton era. However, since I cannot recall similar stories pre-Clinton, and since there is a VAST amount of anecdotal (and empirical) data which tells us about pregnancies (consensual) and other (consensual) misconduct SINCE the Clinton change, we can conclude that the changes were deleterious. The rape/assault stats should tell us that.

It can also be inferred that military authorities are doing a crappy job of enforcing discipline--a conclusion which is well-founded.

I am confounded by those who conclude that I endorse rapists, or "blame the victims." The blame lies first with the perps, then with commanders (for failure to impose appropriate penalties.)

But preceding that is the ludicrous assumption that placing 250,000 more women in close quarters with men will result only in sterile, Platonic relationships. It is, in fact, a denial of nature.

I have argued that this is a close (but not exact) parallel to the ordination of homosexuals to the priesthood in the Catholic Church. The results were all over the news in the last several years.

It comes down to the deliberate non-exercise of prudence.

Sadly, innocents paid the price.
Friday, April 11, 2008 9:40:54 AM (Central Daylight Time, UTC-05:00)
So by extension of course, you would argue that we should never have engaged in the Civil Rights changes in the 60's either correct? After all, the policy of desegregating schools and businesses in the south caused large numbers of innocent black citizens to be the focus of mob intimidation, lynchings and murders.

It was just human nature that forcing white citizens to endorse the idea that blacks were equal to them would create those sorts of problems, and was a denial of nature. Therefore we should have never tried... right?

I say wrong on all counts dad29... and you should stop using such a poor proxy argument while you still have some moral leg to stand on.
Friday, April 11, 2008 10:35:59 AM (Central Daylight Time, UTC-05:00)
Now he brings up people with same sex attraction in the priesthood,
even though scientific studies show that most men who sexually
abuse boys are straight.

And the hole just gets deeper.
Al
Friday, April 11, 2008 11:28:35 AM (Central Daylight Time, UTC-05:00)
Al, you will have to cite those studies. The one done by the CATHOLICS showed that the preponderance of abuse was by SSAD-afflicted individuals. IOW, Al, if you're going to make up stuff, you should prove it.

Nick, if you wish to be obtuse, go ahead. Your argumentation is more typical of the Left--mixing apples and oranges in order to force a result. (At least it's not as bad as Al's, who simply lies.)

So you understand better, Nick, the distinction between MEN and WOMEN is not the same as the distinction between HUMANS who are black and HUMANS who are white.

Does that help, Nick?
Friday, April 11, 2008 4:31:54 PM (Central Daylight Time, UTC-05:00)
And one more thing, Nick.

The races did not have to live (literally) in the same tents/ships/barracks 24x7.

Any other analogies you'd care to try?
Friday, April 11, 2008 4:40:11 PM (Central Daylight Time, UTC-05:00)
dad29... seriously... put down your shovel! So now you're suggesting that blacks and whites can't live in the same tents/ships/barracks 24x7?

Someone who can be trained and disciplined as they do in the army to respect their weapons ought to be able to do the same thing with their comrades, no matter what gender. That is what it boils down to. However, just like discipline must be enforced in order for it to take effect when it comes to cleaning your gun, it must be enforced when it comes to respecting your comrades in arms.

The fact that these problems occur isn't due to the fact that it can't be done, but rather because the discipline that the military has in all other aspects of its existence aren't being applied to this area... mostly because the brass just don't want to.
Friday, April 11, 2008 8:28:46 PM (Central Daylight Time, UTC-05:00)
I can't speak to military discipline.

So now you're suggesting that blacks and whites can't live in the same tents/ships/barracks 24x7?

While you are professionally an analyst, your ability to read is questionable.

Let's try again.

Do you recognize that "black" and "white" are accidents to HUMAN nature, while "male" and "female" are different in kind, while being HUMAN in nature?

If you don't, feel free to admit it. Perhaps your problem is soluble.
Friday, April 11, 2008 8:32:23 PM (Central Daylight Time, UTC-05:00)
Here's the problem dad29... once again... you're arguing women in the military while using rape as a reason. I don't frankly want to argue women in the military. I will say that there is NEVER, EVER, EVER an excuse, reason, or anything remotely close to it for rape. Period. That's all. Its a poor argument to make. Its a poor reason for anything, and its just a plain stupid argument.

Period.
Saturday, April 12, 2008 6:28:51 AM (Central Daylight Time, UTC-05:00)
Now we see who's being obtuse, dad29, when you seem to admit
that you actually think that
"the distinction between MEN and WOMEN is not the same as the distinction between HUMANS who are black and HUMANS who are white."

Guess what? HUMANS who are female are just as HUMAN as those who are male.
Or is that too liberal/fascist/communist for you?
Saturday, April 12, 2008 10:48:08 AM (Central Daylight Time, UTC-05:00)
Hermes, are you attempting to argue that men are identical to women? I always thought there were differences. Feel free to argue otherwise.

Nick--your analysis that there are really two discussions which were inelegantly squashed into one is correct. My point is that the role of women in the military is inappropriate--which you don't want to discuss.

End of discussion.
Saturday, April 12, 2008 11:23:42 AM (Central Daylight Time, UTC-05:00)
The problem I was pointing out is that you don't want to discuss it either. That's why you talk about rape instead.
Saturday, April 12, 2008 5:37:39 PM (Central Daylight Time, UTC-05:00)
Whatever, Nick
Comments are closed.


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