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Thursday, February 07, 2008
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What is "The Church"?

I've been letting this issue stew in my mind for a while, ever since I wrote this post last week.  The post itself hardly amounted to anything, but the comments took on a life of their own.  Instead of trying to continue on the discussion there, I decided to stop responding to it, and give it some serious thought.  Why did I write what I did, a where does this sit within my overall view of the the church.  It took a while, until that phrase resonated very clearly for me.  "The Church".  That phrase is thrown around by Catholics so often, that it almost slips under the radar.  But what does "The Church" mean, to a Catholic, and to a non-Catholic?  And what does this have to do with the ongoing abuse scandal in the priesthood?  Of course, I've never been a member of the the Catholic Church, so take this with the appropriate grain of salt, but I've certainly known many.  For my part, my history is deeply rooted in the Congregational tradition... which should be no surprise given my strong Libertarian beliefs.  The two go together like peanut butter and jelly.

In an attempt to oversimplify the issue, I'll start with this statement.  For Protestants, "The Church" is a building, while for Catholics, "The Church" is Christianity.  This view is quite clear for any non-Catholic who has ever gone to a Catholic wedding and sat through the requisite prayer for "Christian Unity" while Catholics went for communion and the rest of us twiddled our thumbs and shook our heads.  In the view of the Catholic leadership, the Catholic Church is the one true church, while the rest of us are off on some woebegone misadventure, and eventually need to find our way home.  For them, Catholicism isn't a form of Christianity... it is Christianity... they're synonymous.  Of course, we adventurers disagree... sometimes vehemently, which is why "Christian Unity", while an interesting thought, is impossible on any structural level.  There is an old joke about how the British and Americans are a people separated by a common language.  I think the same joke could be made that Catholics and Protestants are a people separated by a common faith.

Of course you have to add the view in the media to this as well.  Whenever representatives of the Christian faith are needed to talk about something on the radio or television, it is almost guaranteed that this person will come from the Catholic Church.  Every year around Christmas, Charlie Sykes will invite someone from the Milwaukee Archdiocese (Dolan most recently) to talk about the meaning of Christmas.  Does it ever even enter his mind that there are millions of Protestants out there too?  Has he ever heard of Martin Luther?  Protestant Reformation ring a bell?  How about the fact that this country was founded by Protestants, not Catholics.  Still, to many people out there, if you don't wear a funny hat, then you must not be a Christian.  If it would make Charlie feel better next year, the Senior Minister at my church is a former monk.  Maybe that would ease the withdrawal.

And so when I hear people talk about the abuse scandals that are destroying the Catholic Church, and then say how it doesn't invalidate "The Church" or its teachings, I have a very hard time reconciling this.  It does damage the Catholic Church.  It just doesn't damage Christianity.  The lessons taught aren't "The Church's" lessons.  They are Christian lessons... "The Church" here is merely the leadership of one group of Christians.  When I read stories like this one (via Marquette Warrior), detailing the cover up and culture in the Catholic leadership that has allowed all this to happen for untold years, and to untold children, it disgusts me.  How can this not damage the Catholic Church?  And why shouldn't it?!

I can say this knowing that if anything remotely like this were to happen in my church, there would have been no cover up.  Whoever was involved would have been not only been reported to the police, but the entire Congregation would immediately gather for a meeting (as it does annually anyway to decide important church business), and the debate and discussion on action would last for hours as to what to do.  For those not satisfied with the result, they would have joined a different church.  In the Catholic Church, the leadership makes all the decisions, and the Catholic faithful are left to deal with the moral (and financial) consequences.  Changing churches doesn't exactly solve the problem either, as the leadership is all the same (see Pope).  When I have talked with Catholics about the pain they feel regarding all this, and the moral weight that they feel because of it, it pains me.  The abuse is shared even by those who weren't physically abused.  And yet they stay there, and continue to watch it happen.  To be clear, I don't place blame on the Catholic faithful.  They are not "The Church"... they are Christians just like me.

And when it comes to punishing "The Church", apparently we're not supposed to do that either.  Patrick McIlheran seems to think that the punitive damages being asked for by the victims are wrong.  After all, the abusers are a small minority of "The Church".  What is the appropriate punishment?

Personally, I think bishops who protected the abusers ought to spend their golden years in silence on their knees in a monastery somewhere, repenting, but those aren’t the usual terms of lawsuits or settlements. Big money is.

You know what I think?  I think they ought to be thrown in jail, where they can spend years in silence on their knees doing something else with their cell mates, just like those abused boys had to.  When you cover up a crime so heinous as that, and allow it to continue, you are just as guilty as the people you covered for, and deserve the same punishment.  It's called being an accessory after the fact.  "The Church" covered up those crimes.  "The Church" allowed priests to stay in a positions of power and influence so that those crimes could continue.  McIlheran is scared that all this could bankrupt the Catholic Church.  Maybe that's the point, and maybe that's not a bad thing.  Christianity will continue in thousands of churches as it always has, having learned the lesson of how centralized and secretive leadership can damage a good thing.  Good Christian works will continue as well, and millions of people will still continue to be helped by Protestant Christians throughout the world.  We will even welcome all the former Catholic faithful into our flock, as we always have.  Of course, we'll probably never see another Basilica built (as beautiful as it is), but then most Protestants never found much use for those.

# Posted at 10:42 AM by Nick  |  Comment Feed Link 77 Comments  |  No Trackbacks

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Thursday, February 07, 2008 1:56:46 PM (Central Standard Time, UTC-06:00)
Why is the prospect of prison rape so often suggested as suitable punishment? If rape outside of prison is bad, why is rape inside of prison good?
Thursday, February 07, 2008 2:56:39 PM (Central Standard Time, UTC-06:00)
I actually agree with John. Prison, yes. Abuse in prison - no.

McIlheran is scared that all this could bankrupt the Catholic Church. Maybe that's the point, and maybe that's not a bad thing.


I'm sorry, Nick. I take that as a deep personal offense.

That would be a punishment to the millions of Catholics who believe that the Church is the true Church. I converted to Catholicism because I didn't *like* Protestantism. Rather than whine and cry about the things I didn't like about the Protestant Church (as groups like CTA do), I left. That's the noble and honorable thing to do.

So now I should just give that up because of abuse and go back to my Lutheran Church?

I don't think so.

Funny, especially becuase even when my mother - a lifelong Catholic - was married to a Lutheran in a Lutheran church, her priest didn't tell her she was going to hell. When I told my pastor I was converting to Catholicism, and marrying a Catholic...that's what he told me. Which only furthered my desire to leave Protestantism all together.

I don't get why its so noble for people to say, "I believe in XXX" but for the Church to say "We belive in XXX" and it to be a crime of the highest degree. Especially when Church history can be connected back to the Apostles. Usually, that kind of historical evidence means something. And without the Catholic Church, there wouldn't *be* a Protestant Church.

If the Catholic Church is shut down - which is what you seem to be advocating - I would never go to any other church.
Amy P.
Thursday, February 07, 2008 3:04:47 PM (Central Standard Time, UTC-06:00)
And the Protestant Church is not devoid of abuse, either. http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,286153,00.html

Amy P.
Thursday, February 07, 2008 3:17:12 PM (Central Standard Time, UTC-06:00)
I never suggested the abuse was confined to the Catholic church Amy. But as with all bodies that have a high degree of structure, the cover up is simply more easy in the Catholic Church. How many priests were moved purposefully from one Catholic church to another, so that the abuse could be spread among multiple Congregations? Many Protestant denominations simply don't have that type of mechanism in place. You choose who you bring on board as your minister, and likewise, you also choose when to kick them out.

The damage is therefore limited, and the chance of abuse is less (although cannot obviously be eliminated). I also never suggested it was a crime for the Church to say "We believe" instead of "I believe". But think about what you're not saying Amy. The Church decided for you to cover up, and shelter known abusers. Are you now also willing to own that cover up and abuse as your own too?
Thursday, February 07, 2008 3:18:13 PM (Central Standard Time, UTC-06:00)
As far as the prison rape goes... that is taking it too far. Just goes to show how angry I am.
Thursday, February 07, 2008 3:33:25 PM (Central Standard Time, UTC-06:00)
We clearly are not going to agree on this issue, Nick.

<blockquote>How many priests were moved purposefully from one Catholic church to another, so that the abuse could be spread among multiple Congregations?</blockquote>

Check your langauge, there. You are bordering on accusing the Church of *advocating* the abuse and "spreading the wealth", for lack of a better phrase.

I need to step away from this conversation. I am very angry with what I classify as a passive advocation of the shut down of my Church. Check my blog; when I've had time to cool down I will be composing a response to your post.
Amy P.
Thursday, February 07, 2008 3:53:54 PM (Central Standard Time, UTC-06:00)
Well Amy... that is what they did. While they may not have moved a priest with the intent of having other boys abused, that is the result. Moreover, they KNEW they were abusing boys when they moved the priest. So how else can you characterize it?! They moved the priest so that attention wouldn't gather on him, but as a result, they abused boys in their new parish? As I said in my original post, it is being an accessory after the fact, which in our criminal code is treated to the same punishment as someone who actually committed the crime, and for very good reason.
Thursday, February 07, 2008 4:20:20 PM (Central Standard Time, UTC-06:00)
As I said above - see my blog in the next day or two. I am too angry to post here.
Amy P.
Thursday, February 07, 2008 4:58:43 PM (Central Standard Time, UTC-06:00)
When they moved a priest from church to church, I don't think they did it with the intention of spreading the abuse. They certainly didn't want the bad PR, they certainly didn't want the pressure from the families, they certainly didn't want to turn them over to the police.

It does come down to beliefs: I think they believed that through prayer or penitence or even just a change of venue or lessened opportunity, these priests would stop what they were doing. They believed the Church was outside the law, that it could handle these crimes within their own systems. They believed that priests were somehow different than other secular sex offenders. They thought the magic smoke and sprinkles would erase it all, for both victim and victimizer. Time and exposure and a willingness to speak out has proven them wrong.

I'm puzzled by your anger and unwillingness to allow open comments, Amy. If you aren't finding solace in your own thoughts, it's not going to help to exclude the thoughts of others. I don't buy this "People aren't perfect; the Church's teaching is" universal excuse, either. These were the Church's teachings and policies, acted out, weren't they?
Thursday, February 07, 2008 6:32:18 PM (Central Standard Time, UTC-06:00)
I'm not sure John on the first. If a priest was moved once, I'd be willing to believe it was out of naive hope. But I'm not sure that is valid any more after more than one move.
Thursday, February 07, 2008 10:09:19 PM (Central Standard Time, UTC-06:00)
I think you got it about right here Nick. This was an organized conspiracy with links to the leadership going all the way to the top. I think it's naive to think "The Church" wasn't trying to harm people in some way or other. But even if it wasn't their intent, Church officials knew that they were hurting people and didn't care. That's about the same thing in my book. That said, I find Catholocism (and Scientolofy and Islam and LDS and Protestantism) laughable even without this. But if this child-rape aspect of the "The Church" doesn't tell you that you joined the wrong club, I don't know what will. *sigh*
Thursday, February 07, 2008 10:57:17 PM (Central Standard Time, UTC-06:00)
<i>I don't buy this "People aren't perfect; the Church's teaching is" universal excuse, either. These were the Church's teachings and policies, acted out, weren't they?,/i>

Policies, yes. Teachings, definitely <i>not.</i>

I can distinguish between the Office of the President and the man George W. Bush. If the man George Bush abuses his office, then it is a judgment on the man and not the office he upholds. The same thing applies to the Pope, a bishop, or a priest, and Catholics have been aware of this for two millenia. "The road to hell is paved with the skulls of bishops," said St. John Chrysostom (a bishop himself), and that was 1600 years ago. And even keeping that in mind, I refuse to lump in the countless priests and bishops who do their offices well with the few who give the rest a bad name.

Why will I stay Catholic, and encourage others to do so.?

1) Christ's guarantee that the Church is protected under Peter and his successors (Matthew 16:13-18). There have been bad Popes, bad men and good weak men both, and we acknowledge that. There have been saintly Popes, and very few after the fifth century have been declared saints. But none of them, from Peter to Benedict XVI, no matter how weak, bad, or downright evil they were, ever compromised the Faith.

2) That guarantee establishes continuity. I can trace my Church back 2000 years, and it has withstood it all. The Borgia Popes come and go, and the Church remains. Reformers and stalwarts like Athanasius, Francis of Assisi, Pius V, Ignatius of Loyola, and John XXIII arrive and depart, and the Church remains. The perpetual adolescents of the 60's are near their end, and the Church has survived them. The new reformers come up to combat them will pass on, and the Church will go on without them. And so it will continue until Our Lord's Return.

3) That continuity gives me my elder brothers and sisters who have gone on before me in the Faith. Peter and Paul and the other apostles; martyrs spanning the centuries from Stephen and Ignatius of Antioch to Maximilian Kolbe and Miguel Pro, and from Perpetua and Felicity to Edith Stein and Maria Goretti; wise teachers and scholars like Thomas Aquinas and Bonaventure; Julian of Norwich and Hildegard of Bingen; reformers like Benedict and Francis,and Catherine of Siena and Teresa of Avila; a humble priest like John Vianney; a young nun like Therese of Lisieux; a king like Louis; a bum like Benedict Joseph Labre; Josephine Bakhita of the Sudan, Paul Miki of Japan, Andew Kim of Korea, Charles Lwanga of Uganda, Kateri Tekakitha of the Mohawks Peter To Rot of New Guinea; a crank like Jerome and a joker like Philip Neri...all of them are with me in the Church Triumphant, and I do not blush to ask for their prayers, as one friend to another...

And with them all and above them all is the woman whose freely chosen "yes" reversed Eve's choice, who is the Ark of the New Covenant, who is the Queen arrayed in gold of Psalm 45, who treasured she saw in her heart, whose heart was pierced with the sword of sorrow, who was, like Enoch and Elijah, taken into heaven body and soul, and who is "Higher than the Cherubim,and glorious beyond the Seraphim". Do I worship Mary? No, but I do try to fulfill Scripture: "Henceforth all generations will call me blessed, for the Almighty has dome great things for me, and holy is His Name."

4) All these saints got to Heaven in the same way I hope to do: through the free and unearned gift of God's Grace. And God bestows His Grace in a variety of splendid ways, but chiefly and specifically in seven ways, and using substance to bring salvation to us. First He washed away my sins in the waters of baptism, and anointed me with Royal Chrism, making me part of his "holy nation, royal priesthood, a people set apart". Later I was strengthened and confirmed in the Holy Spirit, again through the Royal Chrism. I found that I was called to the marriage covenant, and through the love I give and receive through my wife, I find the grace to carry on, and bring about new life. Perhaps I may also be called to service into the Church, and receive irrevocable gifts through the laying on of my bishop's hands to be a deacon. I will likely never be called to the priesthood or episcopacy. And, as I fail in body in soul, I am given forgiveness of my sins, either with the words of absolution (the power to bind and loose), or through oil, as described in James. One more thing keeps me going throughout...

5) The gift of Jesus Himself in the Eucharist. Bread and wine become Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity. The sixth chapter of John was the Real Thing, and not metaphor -- So says Ignatius of Antioch, who was taught by St. John. So say the other Apostolic Churches not in communion in Rome, like the Orthodox and Copts, Armenians and Chaldeans. So long as there is a Real Presence, I must stay with the Church. And no matter how weak, erring, or downright bad a priest might be, when he consecrates the Eucharist, It is the same. And if it's not real, then I'm with Flannery O'Conner: "If it's just a symbol, then I say the hell with it."

I conlude with the words of Martin Luther (of all people): Here I stand, I can do no other. So help me God. Amen.
Friday, February 08, 2008 8:11:40 AM (Central Standard Time, UTC-06:00)
Dave, I'm still hunting in there for the sentence about why the Catholics were unable to extirpate a culture of having sex with altar boys. Are you trying to tell me it's just part of the long history of the Church?
Friday, February 08, 2008 9:23:15 AM (Central Standard Time, UTC-06:00)
The idea that church teaching had nothing to do with this scandal is idiotic. Put those rose colored glasses back into the stained glass portraits where they belong.

The celibacy requirement of priests is at fault here, and the misbegotten notion that it somehow holy to abstain from sex is evil, and the fruits of that policy, the destroyed lives of countless innocent children, should be illuminating to all who stand by such idiocy.

The fact is that almost all people would like to have sex at some point, and when you limit your potential applicants to 1. men 2. who can't have sex; you have severely limited your potential pool of applicants, and have done so in catastrophic fashion.

Who would apply for such jobs?

1. Homosexuals who have been convinced that engaging in homosexual sex will condemn them to hell.

If you're some poor gay kid raised catholic, priesthood must look pretty inviting. You've had it drilled into you that your attraction is evil and that acting on your feelings is unforgivable. In the priesthood you're not allowed to have sex anyway. It's a natural fit, so to speak.

2. Other people who have natural sexual tendencies which run counter to prevailing social norms, most frequently pedophiles.

One of the other great tragedies of this scandal is the conflation of normal gay people with pedophiles. The same church-created incentives drive them to the priesthood, but the irrational belief in the evil of homosexuality is vastly different from the rational belief in the evil of the pedophile, who victimizes the innocent.

The church has driven these two together in the priesthood, and claiming some sort of natural relationship between the two flies in the face of everything we know about pedophiles, and abrogates the responsibility that the church has for pressuring homosexuals who victimize no one, to hide, to bear unmerited shame, to fight against themselves every day. In short, the church treats homosexuals as if they are pedophiles, and then treats the connection that they have created as inerrant truth.

Dave has stuck with the church because it is old, but incentives are older, and sex older still. Understanding the perverse nature of coerced celibacy has been possible forever. Creating an occupation which forbids sex, orders certain people not to have sex, and places them in charge of young boys is evil, sadistic, and idiotic. The naive belief that religious belief could overcome the evil of a situation created by religious belief was evil compounded on evil.

Original sin, the "get out of jail free" card of all church atrocity is not to blame here. Individuals bear the ultimate responsibility for their actions; however, we know that there are pedophiles in the world, and that some will commit horrors upon children.

It takes a special kind of malevolence to place pedophiles in charge of children. It takes a special kind of malevolence to then put the offender in charge of more children after learning of his behavior. And to cover it up. To not make it public. To abandon the protection of your flock.

It also takes a church. No man would have the power to offer such protection absent a hierarchy imbued with great power.

Church policy brought in the pedophiles. Church policy provided children. Church policy looked the other way. And Church policy let it happen again, and again, and again.

They should not be allowed to hoist the weight of their sins onto "human nature."
Friday, February 08, 2008 9:32:31 AM (Central Standard Time, UTC-06:00)
John Foust:

Cheap shot. You tell me how the culture of public schools explains why female teachers go after adolescent boys, or why pedophile teachers (most of them married) were quietly dealt with, or transferred from school to school.

Paul:

I stick with the Church for the aforementioned reasons. As far as clerial celibacy goes -- yes, that is a changeable discipline (there are married Catholic priests), but optional celibacy will never solve the problem of pedophiles, or more accurately, ephebeophiles. Other denominations have had thus problem, and the offenders were married men, often with children of their own. And it wasn't malevolence, but naivete and stupidity, that the policy of transferring offending priests was allowed. In Protestant churches, the minister would have gone away quietly. In a public school, the teacher would have been transferred to another school, or gone off to another district. This does not take away from what has happened in my Church, but I don't see you wanting to abolish the public schools...
Friday, February 08, 2008 9:37:42 AM (Central Standard Time, UTC-06:00)
Paul:

You say:

"One of the other great tragedies of this scandal is the conflation of normal gay people with pedophiles. The same church-created incentives drive them to the priesthood, but the irrational belief in the evil of homosexuality is vastly different from the rational belief in the evil of the pedophile, who victimizes the innocent."

Actually, the two have come together in ephebeophilia. Remember that word. Also,the reason why we have had to deal with this is because Church policy was violated. Men with homosexual inclinations are not supposed to be ordained priests. This policy was ignored, and we are paying for it.
Friday, February 08, 2008 9:52:54 AM (Central Standard Time, UTC-06:00)
I actually don't blame this on priest celibacy. I think that's too easy, and doesn't exactly make sense. That's like suggesting that avoiding drinking will eventually cause you to be a drunk. And the fact is, the overwhelmingly vast majority of priests aren't pedophiles.

I think the problem is with the secrecy that the church has, especially within its upper ranks, which is not within the watchful eye of the faithful. Also, the structure that the Catholic Church has simply grants those in power too much control, and I think makes them think they are immune to the law. They can decide what to do, and what not to, because after all, they can trace their history back to the apostles. That sort of power, along with that type of secrecy is a recipe for abuse, and it has happened time and time again in the Catholic Church.

And Dave... I do advocate for the abolition of the public schools. But you have to remember, I'm also a crazy libertarian.
Friday, February 08, 2008 10:26:25 AM (Central Standard Time, UTC-06:00)
Me too on the public schools, but not because of sexual abuse.

I think the Catholic problem is distinguishable from schools/protestant denominations specifically because of the vow of celbicay. Schools and other denominations will give the authority figure access to children, however the pool of available school teachers, which includes married men and women, will seriously dilute the deviant's chances of gaining employment. The odds of a Priest being a pedophile are far, far greater than the odds of a reverend or a teacher being a pedophile, because there are far more options for those employers.

(I will continue to use "pedophile" by the way, as it carries with it the proper force of victimization that occurred. "Pedophile" is also an accepted English term for those who were at fault in the church scandla. "Ephebophilia" will confuse most people, and is more associated in the West with statutory rape, consensual or not. It's a watering down of much of what took place, but spin away if you must.)
Friday, February 08, 2008 10:45:42 AM (Central Standard Time, UTC-06:00)
It's not spin, Paul. Pedophiles - by definition - go after *young* children. "Ephebophilia" is an attraction to adolescents, which is the primary problem in the Church. Use of the correct terminology is important, and it in no way waters down the abuse.

Your argument is a straw man. An ephebophile or pedophile will intentionally *look* for positions that give them access to children, regardless of how full the pool of potential candidates might be. And in spite of flaws with ordination, it's much easier to become a teacher or a pastor or a camp counselor than it is to become a fully ordained priest. As Dave said - the problem came with ordaining homosexuals to the priesthood and violating the Church policy regarding ordination of homosexuals (and, for the record, there are other guidelines and restrictions that apply; not just orientation).

Celibacy is not the problem. As Nick said, it's like saying abstaining from alcohol will make you a drunk. If celibacy was the problem, no married person would ever commit acts of pedophilia or ephebophilia.
Amy P.
Friday, February 08, 2008 10:45:56 AM (Central Standard Time, UTC-06:00)
Oh, and my post will be up later.
Amy P.
Friday, February 08, 2008 10:57:45 AM (Central Standard Time, UTC-06:00)
Yes, Dave, it was a cheap shot. I had no idea what your words had to do with the price of tea. Telling us why the saints go to heaven doesn't really have anything to do with why homosexuals were attracted to the priesthood, or why a few priests decided to force sex on teens, or why there seem to be a lot more cases of priests who had sex with teen boys rather than teen girls.
Friday, February 08, 2008 11:06:11 AM (Central Standard Time, UTC-06:00)
I don't buy the "naivete and stupidity" excuse, either. You think that gaydar was only invented ten years ago? Ever been in a novitiate? It's like a dorm, except there's nowhere to go out for beers. The priests, monks, and other novitiates damn well knew the habits of everyone around them. It was their culture and attitudes that told them to ignore the evidence before their very eyes. They knew, but they'd been trained to stay obedient and quiet.
Friday, February 08, 2008 11:20:43 AM (Central Standard Time, UTC-06:00)
Most media reports on the scandal refer to the victims as "young boys." And anyway, the line for pre and post-pubescent boys is a wide one. The "Ephebophilia" issue is a semantic. It is intended to make the problem appear less serious than it is. It has no bearing on anything.

I don't think you understand what a straw man argument is. That would be taking an exaggerated version of the church and attacking some exaggerated characteristic of my invented church. My points all have to do with the actual church, and actual church policy (celibacy, and the treatment of homosexuals). Therefore, it is not a straw man argument.

I do not understand this argument:

Celibacy is not the problem. As Nick said, it's like saying abstaining from alcohol will make you a drunk. If celibacy was the problem, no married person would ever commit acts of pedophilia or ephebophilia.

My argument is nothing like that. Simply stated, my argument is as follows:

1. There are pedophiles.
2. Some pedophiles will be rasied Catholic.
3. Pedophiles cannot engage in their preferred sexual activity because it requires a victim. Sex for them, is basically out of the question.
4. The church offers a position which forbids sex.
5. It also claims that abstaining from sex is a good thing.
6. Normal people who have socially acceptable outlets for their sexual urges choose not to enter the priesthood, as sex is better.
7. The applicant pool for priests consists only of those who choose the church over having sex, and those that cannot have sex in normal society.
8. Therefore, the pool of potential priests will contain a higher percentage of predators than you would normally find.

There will be pedophile teachers and pedophile reverends, but only in Catholicism is the fiel of potential priests specifically set up to attract such people.

If you would care to take issue with any of my points above, I'm happy to listen. If you insist on arguing with a straw man version of my argument based on a meaningless semantic issue, good luck with that.

Friday, February 08, 2008 2:02:52 PM (Central Standard Time, UTC-06:00)
Ummmnnnhhh....

Nick, look carefully at the response which separates GWB from the Office of President. Same applies (mutatis mutandis) to the Church. R. Weakland (and a LOT of other Bishops) perpetrated the scam, albeit they were bamboozled by witch-doctor shrinks for some duration. Obviously, they were wrong--and McIlheran is right--suing the daylights out of "the Church" will only punish the innocent. Trust me, if one of the perps had diddled MY boys, he wouldn't have done it twice; and I'd be perfectly happy to assist you with re-arranging Father PinkyTutu's personal parts if he did one of your sons, as well. That, Nick is called "Catholic Action." Maybe it's not legal....or moral...but it would have worked.

Weakland is NOT "the Church." Clinton was the President, but the Office of the President is hardly guilty of hummer purchases.

Recognize distinctions, Nick. It will make your posts a lot easier to read.
Friday, February 08, 2008 2:11:11 PM (Central Standard Time, UTC-06:00)
Obviously, they were wrong--and McIlheran is right--suing the daylights out of "the Church" will only punish the innocent.

Well, no. Since the victims will be hurt if not compensated. So not having the church pay also punishes the innocent. And there is the matter of deterrence. Suing the church will also dissuade them from protecting their rapists in the future.

Bill Clinton did not, at least to our knowledge, use his position of power to force sex.

The Priests in these cases did.

Recognize the lack of distinctions, Dad.
Friday, February 08, 2008 2:14:37 PM (Central Standard Time, UTC-06:00)
Bill Clinton did not, at least to our knowledge, use his position of power to force sex.

Please don't tell me you typed that with a straight face, Paul.

Amy P.
Friday, February 08, 2008 2:17:00 PM (Central Standard Time, UTC-06:00)
Also dad29, I refuse to seperate the man from the office, when the trappings, power, and secrecy which lead to the abuse are inherent in the office itself. If you want to compare this to politics, it's an easy one. We see politicians all the time who get themselves elected to high office by claiming they will do one thing, and then once faced with all the power of the office they now hold, take advantage of it.

Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. That is the power and draw of the OFFICE, not the person. That is why proper oversight, and lack of secrecy are key, whether we are talking about Presidents, or Popes. After all, Clinton isn't the only President who ever abused his power. Nixon, Kennedy... hell even Bush. Maybe not always to sexual ends, but it doesn't need to be sexual to make a good example.
Friday, February 08, 2008 2:25:06 PM (Central Standard Time, UTC-06:00)
Paul, I'm not going to engage a Libertarian Lawyer on this thread, sorry. Suffice it to say that the fixation on money demonstrated by ....certain folks....tells us a lot about their understanding of first things.

Nick, in the final analysis, it was Weakland (Bishop X, if you like) who made the error. I grant you that the culture of clericalism and secrecy contributed to the problem. But, in fact, had Weakie (and all the others) actually OBEYED Rome's instruction not to ordain homosexuals, ...

Nick, please demonstrate in baby-steps (humor me) your logic in assigning "fault" to "an office." I daresay you will fail in the task unless you continue to elide the distinction between 'man' and 'position.'
Friday, February 08, 2008 2:25:42 PM (Central Standard Time, UTC-06:00)
But did everyone in the priesthood or the Presidency abuse the power that comes with the office? No. Just like "absolute power corrupts absolutely", there are those who believe that with great power there is great responsibility and act accordingly.
Amy P.
Friday, February 08, 2008 2:30:17 PM (Central Standard Time, UTC-06:00)
John:

First of all, I was telling Nick (and all else) why I'm staying Catholic. My own reasons, perhaps, but reasons nontheless. I will not have all the good things done away with for the crimes of a few.

And yes, I have been around seminarians and men in formation. I almost went into the priesthood myself. I know what has gone on a lot of places.
Friday, February 08, 2008 2:30:31 PM (Central Standard Time, UTC-06:00)
While that is true Amy... there is no guarantee that an office's trappings will corrupt... the temptation is strong, and always present. Because of that temptation, it is clear that oversight by those who would be controlled is crucial to ensure that people are using the trappings of office appropriately. Mold grows in the dark, and so does corruption.

Otherwise, all you have is hope and prayer that they're doing the right thing. Which I suppose is exactly how the Catholic Church ended up in the problem they're in. But hope and prayer didn't stop the abuse, and neither will hoping and praying that the next person will simply do better.
Friday, February 08, 2008 2:36:29 PM (Central Standard Time, UTC-06:00)
Dad, I understand that I'm too tough for you, but that shouldn't stop you from trying. Money? Who cares about money? Did I mention money? I talk about my job as little as possible on the web, but I get as pissed off about overly zealous plaintiffs attorneys and unnecessary regulations as anyone.

I care about kids gettign raped, and about preventing it from happening in the future.

Amy, you are correct. It would be naive of me to claim that Clinton never used his power for sex. He almost certainly did. However, I maintain that it is not the same thing that we are talking about here, for all of the reasons previously stated.
Friday, February 08, 2008 2:37:29 PM (Central Standard Time, UTC-06:00)
I don't disagree that there shouldn't be better oversight, Nick. I'd be all for it because I would probably end up in jail if I ever discovered a priest abusing a kid and said priest would be missing a few essential body parts.

As Dad29 said above, the first and most obvious solution is to not admit homosexual men to the seminary.
Amy P.
Friday, February 08, 2008 2:43:36 PM (Central Standard Time, UTC-06:00)
Money? Who cares about money? Did I mention money?

Here:

Since the victims will be hurt if not compensated. So not having the church pay also punishes the innocent.

If not money, then what?

I don't disagree there should be compensation. But that has to include throwing the b*stards who did this in jail and a reasonable sum of money that will not bankrupt diocese and leave innocent Catholics, and the non-Catholic communities they serve (like the homeless folk who regularly show up at St. John's Cathedral) without a Church home.
Amy P.
Friday, February 08, 2008 2:49:46 PM (Central Standard Time, UTC-06:00)
Let's assume for a second that you keep the celibate thing in place and somehow screen out all homosexuals. I predict that you will actually increase the number of sexual predators that you attract, as the pool of potential priests is reduced further to those who put the church about sex and those who can hide their true sexual orientations. Sexual predators who are not yet in prison will be quite adept at evading detection.


And I'm not advocating that the church continue to ordain homosexuals, though I personally see no problem with it. If it's against your religion, so be it. I think the church should let priests marry. However, screening out homosexual priests and doing nothing else will probably not have the desired effect.
Friday, February 08, 2008 2:51:43 PM (Central Standard Time, UTC-06:00)
"church above sex" not "about"
Friday, February 08, 2008 3:01:39 PM (Central Standard Time, UTC-06:00)
Wherein Dad29 inadvertently and without a trace of awareness, demonstrates exactly the old smokey thinking we're talking about. Now I know Dad29 takes all this seriously, and this is no subject to be laughing about. But if you want a vignette of how this got "handled" back in '58, he just demo'd. Ridicule the homo. Minimize the sexual assault as "diddling." Shrinks are "witch-doctors", priests are adept at handling sexual assault as well as marriage counseling, fundraising and lawn maintenance. Assume that you'd know about the assault in time to do something about it. And in those daydreams, what would Real Men do? Exercise a little Chestertonian "muscular Christianity" to assert their own heterosexuality by harming the priest's manly bits. Then refrain from turning the pederast over to the police, but instead let the Church handle it. Gotta show some respect. Nothing said about the victim, who will just have to get over it. I think he left out the ending, which is "And then they'd ship him off to minister to the little impoverished parish in East Bumblefrick, or spend a year working the kitchen at a retreat, that'll show 'em. Let's get back to dartball!"

Yes I think the sex between Clinton and Monica was consensual, all around. Did either of them ever say otherwise? Does this mean I need to give up all the sexual favors I get from the Boots and Kittens groupie-babes?

For that matter, I think Paul's assessment is a bit too linear, too. It seems a bit drastic to say you'd need to become a priest if you were a pedophile. They have other options. Then there's all the Catholic non-priest pedophiles. We seem to have heard about more priest-on-teen male-male assaults than any other kind. Certainly there were heterosexual assaults, too. There were no doubt some consensual relationships between priests, nuns and parishioners - against Church rules, but not illegal. And sliding down the slippery slope started by words like "ephebophiles," there may have been some illegal but otherwise outwardly consensual relationships between adults and teens, too, again probably male-to-male, that we don't hear about because there were no complaints. I think it all stems from the malformed atttitudes about sex within the Church.
Friday, February 08, 2008 3:19:14 PM (Central Standard Time, UTC-06:00)
It seems a bit drastic to say you'd need to become a priest if you were a pedophile

Never said that. It would serve as a natural draw for the Catholic pedophile, and would draw a disproportionate number of Catholic pedophiles, but it will not be the destination of every Catholic pedophile.
Friday, February 08, 2008 3:33:01 PM (Central Standard Time, UTC-06:00)
John, your rants are insufferable.

Paul, if you wish to demonstrate your intellectual skills, tell me how punishing the innocent is a licit method of compensating someone, while not violating the principle that 'one cannot do evil to achieve good.'

Or perhaps more aggressively: when did law schools abandon foundational moral principles? Just when PI's started making large contributions, or before then?
Friday, February 08, 2008 3:34:23 PM (Central Standard Time, UTC-06:00)
Yes, Paul, I turned your conclusion around improperly. I don't think most pedophiles are exclusively so. Many grow up tohave rather ordinary heterosexual or homosexual relationships as well. There's certainly plenty of evidence that people who felt their sexuality was too limited by Catholic doctrine would simply leave the church. You might as well try to examine the reasons that people wanted to become priests or nuns, or why the homosexuals and molesters thought their urges or shame would be alleviated by heading towards the Church instead of away from it.
Friday, February 08, 2008 3:46:01 PM (Central Standard Time, UTC-06:00)
Dad, I knew you wouldn't think much of my rant, but it's what I saw behind your words. So why wouldn't you just turn him over to the cops?

As for "harming the innocents", if parishioners freely gave their tithe to the Church without strings, and if the Church could be held responsible for hiding crimes, why shouldn't the Church be fined? Is it too harmful to fine them? Why is it of consequence to the court to worry that this fine would affect the future services and benefits of the customers who patronize this particular business, er, Church? You want more Church? Pay for more Church. Patient says, It hurts when I do this. Doc says, Don't do that. Are you claiming that the Church is short on funds and assets?

And Amy, you're against prison rape, but you'd eliminate "a few essential body parts" from molesting priests? Have you talked this over with your priest?
Friday, February 08, 2008 4:00:17 PM (Central Standard Time, UTC-06:00)
Paul, if you wish to demonstrate your intellectual skills, tell me how punishing the innocent is a licit method of compensating someone, while not violating the principle that 'one cannot do evil to achieve good.'

This really hinges on the innocence of the church. And let's not confuse donors with the church itself. Donors are consumers who give to the church in exchange for the right to worship, eternal salvation, etc. Objecting to lawsuits against the church because it hurts donors is like objecting to lawsuits against a pizza joint because it hurts customers. True, but who cares? They can take their money elsewhere if they object. There is huge competition in religion, and there are many sects which have not shielded sexual predators from legal consequences.

Innocent Dad? Really? Putting this on Weakland seems a bit limited, as it has been a nationwide problem. The church handledthis poorly, to put it mildly. Those in charge put pedophiles in charge of children. They were able to do this because of the power of their position, and the power of the church. And then they moved the perpetrators to new children. Without the church, these sickos are arrested. Without the church's protection, this stops at a few victims.

The church has power over people. If you believe in the church, you believe it is your only means of salvation. Most people will put up with a lot for such a price. It is better to lose the whole world, after all.

Once the church knew about this problem, they put their members in a position of choosing either their children's welfare or their souls. Only a church could do that.

Innocent my ass. They're guilty. They supplied weak men with the power to destory lives. And then, when they were put on notice, they did not change.

It is not enough to simply state that I am punishing the innocent, Dad. I made quite a few points above about the guilt borne by the church itself.

I'm not in favor of punishing the innocent. The church is not innocent. If you wish to disagree with me, you must make your case on that point.
Friday, February 08, 2008 4:03:59 PM (Central Standard Time, UTC-06:00)
I don't think most pedophiles are exclusively so. Many grow up tohave rather ordinary heterosexual or homosexual relationships as well. There's certainly plenty of evidence that people who felt their sexuality was too limited by Catholic doctrine would simply leave the church. You might as well try to examine the reasons that people wanted to become priests or nuns, or why the homosexuals and molesters thought their urges or shame would be alleviated by heading towards the Church instead of away from it.

Some would see it as their only option, or at least a very good one, if remaining Catholic is the only means of salvation. True believers are more likely to feel this way, and more likely to become priests.
Friday, February 08, 2008 4:18:47 PM (Central Standard Time, UTC-06:00)
Some would see it as their only option, or at least a very good one, if remaining Catholic is the only means of salvation. True believers are more likely to feel this way, and more likely to become priests.

You could say that about anyone with an excess urge to do anything the Church prohibited, no?
Friday, February 08, 2008 4:25:43 PM (Central Standard Time, UTC-06:00)
Perhaps, but sex tends to be a bit different. It is a rather strong driving force.
Friday, February 08, 2008 4:29:39 PM (Central Standard Time, UTC-06:00)
Donors are consumers who give to the church in exchange for the right to worship, eternal salvation, etc

Ovviously, serious discussion is not going to occur here.

Frankly, I thought you were able to think. My bad.
Friday, February 08, 2008 4:37:55 PM (Central Standard Time, UTC-06:00)
Take a step back, Dad29. You think your donations to the Church are somehow off limits? Certainly you as an individual don't get much control over how they're used. You think it's like a bank account?
Friday, February 08, 2008 4:39:40 PM (Central Standard Time, UTC-06:00)
I like how Dad never actually supports any of his statements with facts, philosophical points, logic, etc. He just says "you don't know what you're talking about young whippersnapper" and takes off.

You object to this line:

Donors are consumers who give to the church in exchange for the right to worship, eternal salvation, etc

What exactly don't you like about it? Sure, it's a bit glib, but it's spot on as far as analysis goes. It also has the benefit of being true.

That's fine though Dad, I always get the same intellectual laziness from you, every time. Sad, since you're a strong writer, but I suppose you can't be good at everything.
Friday, February 08, 2008 5:46:42 PM (Central Standard Time, UTC-06:00)
"Paul, I'm not going to engage a Libertarian Lawyer on this thread, sorry."

Okay, first we get a prime example of a straw man, and now this great example of an ad hominem. Any other logical fallacies you guys want to bring up? Dad, you really aren't saying anything at all. Paul has repeatedly made logical, coherent arguments. He's taken great care to explain them thoroughly, and remarkably, he hasn't gotten angry in the slightest (or at least the way I read it he hasn't) and all you can do is give these inane, two-word, blow-off responses. It's pathetic really. It's almost as if you think it's okay to think things based on dilusional conversations with a sky wizard instead of analyzing the real world and applying logic an reason....
Friday, February 08, 2008 9:15:35 PM (Central Standard Time, UTC-06:00)
And Amy, you're against prison rape, but you'd eliminate "a few essential body parts" from molesting priests? Have you talked this over with your priest?

It's called hyperbole. Clearly you were absent the day they went over that in English class.

JIJARWM - you're an atheist. Anyone who refers to God as a "sky wizard" clearly isn't capable of even remotely understanding Church teaching and religious faith and is therefor unable to engage in a coherent argument regarding the same. The well thought out arguments Dad29, Dave and I have made won't penetrate that thick shield of atheistic superiority you wield so mightily.
Saturday, February 09, 2008 11:49:08 AM (Central Standard Time, UTC-06:00)
Wait, I'm the one with the thick shield of superiority? Please. The god in your mythology is magic and lives in a place that is often referred to as being located "above." "Sky wizard" is an appropriate description.

Dad29 has not made ANY arguments on this thread. Dave just sited a bunch of nonsense from an old, violent book that is totally unrelated to the issue. I don't know who you are so I don't know what arguments you've made. Regardless, you guys are believers. You're clearly not capable of looking at anything objectively.

Saturday, February 09, 2008 11:55:15 AM (Central Standard Time, UTC-06:00)
Alright folks... let's simmer. JIJARWM, if you could stop it with the sky wizard stuff please. It doesn't add anything, except gasoline on a fire that has nothing to do with this thread.
Saturday, February 09, 2008 12:45:52 PM (Central Standard Time, UTC-06:00)
All that crap Dave brought up about the age of Christianity and what that book says has nothing to do with church conspiracies either. Referring to a particular mythology's god as a "sky wizard" is just a way of saying that he's not real. It's simply the logical response to people that refer to that mythology as "the true church" or something like that. It's no more rhetorical than what we're hearing from Amy, Dave and Daddio. But okay. I'll stop using it here. What should I refer to the christian god as then?
Saturday, February 09, 2008 1:26:46 PM (Central Standard Time, UTC-06:00)
You don't have to understand those beliefs, but that doesn't mean you have to demean them.
Saturday, February 09, 2008 3:20:20 PM (Central Standard Time, UTC-06:00)
I never said I didn't understand them. I do. I have not demeaned them anymore than they have demeaned those of us with no beliefs. See e.g. Dad29's ad hominem towards Paul, or anyone's claim that they "know" the "truth."
Saturday, February 09, 2008 8:05:40 PM (Central Standard Time, UTC-06:00)
Amy, I don't think "It's called hyperbole. Clearly you were absent the day they went over that in English class." Dad29 made the same suggestion. You both came up with eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth responses. You both wanted to attack the penis of the assaulting priest. Why is that? Do you have the same fervor to cut off the hand of someone who steals from the collection plate?
Saturday, February 09, 2008 10:32:20 PM (Central Standard Time, UTC-06:00)
JIJARWM:

I've taken a long look at all the comments, and since I probably have

First of all, I should clarify that I wrote that part of my first post for Nick's benefit. I took issue with his suggestion that Catholics should just leave and go to other denominations. I gave him my reasons for staying. As you don't believe in Christianity at all,it is irrelevant to you, and therefore none of your business, just as it is no business of mine to butt in on why Hasidic Judaism is better than other kinds Orthodox Judaism, or the pros and cons of nihilistic atheism as opposed to Objectivism. Leave that part of the discussion to those who care about the internal and theological issues.

As far as the ephebophilia scandal goes (and yes, Paul, I will use that word, as the overwhelming amount of offenders went after adolescent boys), I'm as angry and disgusted with it as anyone else. I know what John Foust is talking about with gay-dominated seminaries and novitiates (BTW, John, if that is one of the reasons why you not only did not go through on becoming a priest, and also contributing to your loss of faith, I understand. I do know where you're coming from.). If you want a "conservative Catholic" perspective on this, read Michael Rose's book "Goodbye, Good Men", which is detailed, blunt, and merciless on details. You may or may not agree with many of his points, but I think examining his POV is worth the time.

All the same, I mostly agree with P-Mac (although I agree with Nick that prison time is more fitting for the offenders). The Church is an easier target than, say, the public schools, which have had had problems with pedophiliacs and oversexed female teachers going after adolescent boys (Mary LeTorneau, anyone?). Were we to try changing the rules on the schools regarding statutes of limitations and so forth, it just wouldn't fly. We'd hear, "It was only a few teachers - you can trust most of the,", and "we've reformed our screening process", along with, "there are so many good things we do -- why take that all away?" and (of course), "this will harm the children".

Nick and John Foust: I'll make you a deal. Meet up with me for a beer someplace and I'll lend you out "Goodbye, Good Men." We can talk about these issues personally, rather than on this format. And maybe, just maybe, we might actually understand each other a bit better, and for the better. My email's there. Drop me a note.
Sunday, February 10, 2008 9:52:30 AM (Central Standard Time, UTC-06:00)
Dave,
Are you saying that how old a club like catholicism is is a reason to stay in that club? If we kept doing stuff just because that's the way it was always done, we'd still be wiping our asses with leaves. But we're not. Because something better came along. We don't need religion to explain the world anymore, justlike we don't need leaves to wipe our asses anymore. Can't you see that catholocism's doctrine re: not allowing preists to bone, and then hiding the perves it attracts, is causing a great deal of hardship in the world?
Sunday, February 10, 2008 3:00:53 PM (Central Standard Time, UTC-06:00)
I'll ask a simple question again: Did any of the Catholics here suggest that the abusers be turned over to secular authorities for trial and punishment?
Sunday, February 10, 2008 4:49:20 PM (Central Standard Time, UTC-06:00)
John Foust:

See above. I think those who are criminally liable should be prosecuted and convicted. Cardinal Mahoney, for example.

JIJARWM:

I'm saying that I've got my reasons for staying in the "club", just as you have your reasons for staying out of it. Nick was suggesting that Catholics should leave that club, and I told him why they shouldn't. You're neither Protestant nor Catholic, so, to be blunt, that discussion doesn't concern you.

As far as pervs, maybe I could ask you to see whether libertine and promiscuous sex, whether heterosexual or homosexual,is even more a hardship; and that a significant number of the gay community condones. or at least tolerates, what these priests have done, had they not been Catholic priests (see NAMBLA or any number of gay "coming of age" stories).
Sunday, February 10, 2008 4:59:48 PM (Central Standard Time, UTC-06:00)
JIJARWM:

Really? "Something better" - okay, let's have at it then. In the 20th century alone, the "somthing better" - Communism/Socialism/Nazism - has taken approximately 170 million lives and caused untold damage to others. These governments were openly irreligious or openly hostile to religions. Your philosophies brought us the terror of Stalinism, Mao's Cultural Revolution, Cambodia's killing fields, Nazism.

And social Darwinism - many of the "robber barons" of the late 19th century had little use for religions, too.

More to the point, a study by Freedom House ranked countries based on their freedoms in correlation to their Christian populations. Surprise, surprise - the nations considered most free and with the highest respect for civil liberties were also the nations that had the highest populations of Christians, while the lowest ranking countries were predominantly non-Christian and a few - China, North Korea - are communist.

So I guess that's how you - and the secular progressives like you - conceive of "something better".

If you say that's not how secular progressives act and that those vicious monsters responsible for the slaughter of millions of innocents in the name of "enlightened progress" misinterpreted or abused their positions in pursuit of personal pleasure and gain then, maybe - just maybe - you could wrap your myopic worldview around the notion that these priests abused Catholic teaching and that it isn't as outdated a belief system as you *wish* it would be.

John:

See above. Repeatedly. Every single priest and/or bishop who abused or covered up the abuse should be wearing "liturgical orange" - either for the remainder of their lives or a significant portion of it. Never, ever, did I try to defend their actions - they are indefensible and grossly criminal.
Sunday, February 10, 2008 5:09:56 PM (Central Standard Time, UTC-06:00)
And you're right on the tooth for a tooth thing. I tend to shoot from the hip, and chances are (I hope) I'd never walk in on an abuse-in-progress (for lack of a better term). No - I would go to the police, IMMEDIATELY, and turn in the priest. I'd testify and do what it took to make sure he never harmed another child again. But I wouldn't engage in vigilantism.

However, force to defend one's life and safety or the safety of another is acceptable and compatible with Church teaching. In the unfortunate event I walked in on someone - anyone - abusing a child (be it sexually or physically) and tackling/punching and forcibly subduing the attacker would spare that child additional harm - you'd better believe I'd get physical. Wouldn't you, in that situation?
Sunday, February 10, 2008 5:20:56 PM (Central Standard Time, UTC-06:00)
"You're neither Protestant nor Catholic, so, to be blunt, that discussion doesn't concern you."

Yes, how ridiculous of me to have an opinion about child-fucking when I'm not a memeber of either the pro-child-fucking Christians or the anti-child-fucking Christians. Or wait, it's adolescent-fucking, right? You know, there are other clubs you could switch to besides protestantism when you learn that your club is into dirty, evil things.

"Really? "Something better" - okay, let's have at it then. In the 20th century alone, the "somthing better" - Communism/Socialism/Nazism..."

Um, do you think the only options are Christianity or Communism? That's insance. I never advocated anything close to communism. I'm a libertarian.

" has taken approximately 170 million lives and caused untold damage to others. These governments were openly irreligious or openly hostile to religions. Your philosophies brought us the terror of Stalinism, Mao's Cultural Revolution, Cambodia's killing fields, Nazism."

Well, more acurately, dogmatism took those lives. People can be dogmatic about religion or any other philosophy including Communism. Would I'm advocating is to not be dogmatic about anything. If my political party started murdering people, I'd quit. If my religion started covering up child rape, I'd quit.

Sunday, February 10, 2008 5:59:14 PM (Central Standard Time, UTC-06:00)
You're tone clearly indicates "something better" means eschewing and doing away with religion. by definition, that's secularism. I merely pointed out that there has not existed on this planet that hasn't brought death, destruction, and poverty to its citizens and others.

And - once again - you prove your demeaning attitude toward religion by referring to the Church as a "club" and ignoring the fact that out of the billions of Catholics that existed throughout the 2,000 year history of Catholicism, only a small fraction (less than one half of one percent) - a fraction with a basis in liberal thinking and a contempt for traditional Church teaching - was into "dirty things."

Dave's comment was directed at Nick - as to why Dave (and I) will remain with the Church. You refuse to see the good - and there is tremendous good - that the Church has done. You, who clearly have no respect for Nick's religion, my religion, or any religion - were not part of that, and it had nothing to do with - as you so tastefully put it - "child-fucking". Until you pick up a Catechism of the Catholic Church, or Luther's Small Catechism, and read them, and understand it (even if you don't agree with it) you will be incapable of understanding where Dave's coming from. So, once again, butt out.

Quite frankly, without Christianity in general and Catholicism in particular, the Western civilization as we know it would not exist. Our laws, our parameters of justice, our culture, has a basis in Judeo-Christian teaching which was - at its inception - an extremely radical notion. It was surrounded by civilizations where laws were ill-applied and those who were in the upper classes garnered more license and privilege under the law than those who were lower class. Christianity came - Mosaic law first - and created a law where everyone (man, woman, child) was held accountable to the same moral standards. That standard of law still applies today.

And, honestly, what the hell is your problem with religion? Let's say you're right - there is no God. What is it to you that millions of people spend their lives engaging in worship that makes them happy, gives them a sense of peace, gives them direction and discipline, encourages them to be charitable toward others, and to work toward creating a society where others can live to the fullest dignity of humankind? When we die, we die and we won't know the difference and we won't have the opportunity to linger in regret.

If you're right, and there is no God, then all bets are off. The *only* applicable rule is "Don't Get Caught" because nothing else matters. You see this in popular culture already - a culture that is forever in pursuit of "happiness", not being "oppressed" by religion, and never finding it. Why? Because when you turn freedom into vice, you become oppressed by vice. When you decide its easier to live an apathetic life with no real convictions, you're going to spend your life chasing a happiness that always eludes you because not being tied to anything (being "dogmatic" as you put it) means nothing will ever satisfy you. Which is why studies indicate people who are religious are significantly happier than those who are not. So, even if you think religion is a load of hooey, clearly it has benefits above and beyond making any one individual happy.

The notion that you can be secular or atheist and still have a value system similar to the West's is a non-starter because secularists and atheists deny the very source of that value system: Christian teaching.

If I were an atheist, I wouldn't give a damn what I did to whoever crossed my path, whether or not I was environmentally conscious, or who (or what) I had to destroy because - if this is all there was, and we're just some random accident floating in space - it doesn't matter how I treat others, how I treat the planet, or how I obtain the things I want. Because, after this, there's nothing else and there is no real reason for me not to do that - save not to get caught.
Sunday, February 10, 2008 5:59:56 PM (Central Standard Time, UTC-06:00)
Correction:

This

I merely pointed out that there has not existed on this planet that hasn't brought death, destruction, and poverty to its citizens and others.

should read:

I merely pointed out that there has not existed on this planet a secular government that hasn't brought death, destruction, and poverty to its citizens and others.
Sunday, February 10, 2008 6:55:37 PM (Central Standard Time, UTC-06:00)
"The notion that you can be secular or atheist and still have a value system similar to the West's is a non-starter because secularists and atheists deny the very source of that value system: Christian teaching."

You have it backwards. The values associated with Christianity are much older than Christianity. We all have a moral instinct. This instinct was often incorporated into religions when people invented them. I think the clearest proof of this is that atheists commit FEWER crimes than religious people.

Also, I've seen just as many studies showing that secular societies are happier than religious ones. Plenty of secular governments have not brought death and destruction and poverty. The US has a secular government. Almost all of western Europe does too. See also Scandanavia. Also, I'd say that religion inhibited the progress of Western society. It continues to do so today. And even if that weren't the case, it was cleary protestantism in the US, not Catholicism that fostered our capitalism. See Max Weber.

Also, if you can't see the bad that Religion causes, you should reread Nick's post for a great example.
Sunday, February 10, 2008 7:09:51 PM (Central Standard Time, UTC-06:00)
JIJALWM:

OK. You're a libertarian. Thank you for clarifying that. I may have seen you mention that before in the past, and it's my error that I assumed otherwise.

But back to the topic at hand:

I'll put it this way: I have no right telling a Theravadic Buddhist that his opinions are a "load of crap" because he has his own reasons for staying so, as opposed to what Mahayana Buddhism has to offer. It's simply not my affair, as I'm no Buddhist. You're not a Christian. Nick has his reasons for being in his denomination, and I have mine. You have your reasons for not being a Christian. So, I repeat again, when we debate on faith matters, you've really got no business commenting.

You know, there are other clubs you could switch to besides protestantism when you learn that your club is into dirty, evil things.

If the leaders of my "club" were into dirty, evil things which were expressly against "club" rules, I'd be moving to have them thrown out, and have new leaders installed who will follow and implement "club" rules. The bad leaders are not representative of what the "club" is really about.

The same with Catholicism. We're not going to leave our Church because of a relative few. We want the child f***ers out, as they never should have been ordained in the first place. We want their enablers out, as they do not deserve to lead us. We want priests who will be faithful to their freely-chosen vow of chastity ( and most of them are), and bishops who will deal swiftly with any priest who breaks his vow in such a horrible way (and there are a few bishops with spines out there - more of them, please).

I can believe a Muslim who says that Osama bin Laden is not representative of true Islam, or a Pentecostal who contends that Jimmy Swaggart is a discredit to Pentecostals, or a Fundamental Baptist who disassociates himself from Fred Phelps. I'll give credit to a gay man (most of them) who despises the likes of NAMBLA. I'll even consider your statement that the atheism of Communism and Nazism was atypical. Along those same lines, maybe you should consider that, whatever other faults they have, the majority of Catholic clergy are not child molesters, nor do they condone or enable it.
Sunday, February 10, 2008 7:28:58 PM (Central Standard Time, UTC-06:00)
"I'll put it this way: I have no right telling a Theravadic Buddhist that his opinions are a "load of crap" because he has his own reasons for staying so, as opposed to what Mahayana Buddhism has to offer. It's simply not my affair, as I'm no Buddhist. You're not a Christian. Nick has his reasons for being in his denomination, and I have mine. You have your reasons for not being a Christian. So, I repeat again, when we debate on faith matters, you've really got no business commenting."

"Matters of faith" are just ideas. When someone expresses the opinion that 911 was a conspiracy, I tell them their opinion is stupid and wrong. When someone tells me the moon-landing was a hoax, I tell them their opinion is stupid and wrong. When someome expresses support for astrology or dousing or talking to the dead or psychics etc., I tell that person that thier ideas are wrong. The same goes for religion. It's NO different than astrology. Not a bit. It's free speech. It's the vigorous exchange of ideas that makes this country great. In other words, YOU have NO right to tell ME what I can and can't criticize.
Sunday, February 10, 2008 7:56:21 PM (Central Standard Time, UTC-06:00)
When someome expresses support for astrology or dousing or talking to the dead or psychics etc., I tell that person that their ideas are wrong. The same goes for religion. It's NO different than astrology. Not a bit. It's free speech. It's the vigorous exchange of ideas that makes this country great. In other words, YOU have NO right to tell ME what I can and can't criticize.

Maybe I can put it THIS way: you may have the right to say it, but it doesn't mean it's really any of your business. You can criticize religion all you want, and I'll defend your right to do it, but you are in no position to take sides on Catholic vs. Protestant, Presbyterian vs. Methodist, or Freewill Baptist vs. Primitive Baptist. You believe it's all hogwash. Very well. Stay out of it, then, just as I'll happily stay out of any discussions on the various shades of atheism that you and your cohorts engage in, or anything Nick brings up regarding internal affairs in his own congregation/denomination.
Sunday, February 10, 2008 8:22:30 PM (Central Standard Time, UTC-06:00)
Whatever. That makes no sense. I don't care what you see your alternatives as being, a group that covers up for rapists is not a good group IMO. And I'm going to call it what it is.
Sunday, February 10, 2008 8:23:15 PM (Central Standard Time, UTC-06:00)
Also, if you can't see the bad that Religion causes, you should reread Nick's post for a great example.

Yes - silly me. Less than 1% of the world's population of Catholics engages in behavior contradictory to the teaching of the Church (see Dave's point about "club" rules above) and suddenly it's all bad.

Since I'm going to surmise that in addition to promoting secularism your notion of "something better" was a reference to science, I'm going to guess that you're a numbers and statistics kind of guy. Okay. Then please find where religion has caused as much death and destruction as governments free of religion. Tally it up and see if it comes anywhere near 170 million lives (and counting).

And - for the umpteenth time - you show your amazing inability to read and comprehend. Nick's post is an example of a specific case of religion. Not *all* religion. You who so bravely defended the death and destruction of communist/socialist as being caused by "dogmatic" principles are (no surprises here) not as willing to accept that the priests who abused and those who covered it up were "dogmatic" in their perverse desire to abuse children. As Dave said, read Goodbye, Good Men. It's an eye opener. Those who engaged in the abuse and covered it up 1) didn't deserved to be ordained in the first place, and 2) profess(ed) beliefs that stand in total contradiction to Church teaching.

With regards to your discussion with Dave, he's right. You may have the right to weigh in on the conversation, but you have an obligation to know that of which you speak. You don't. Talk to me when you've read the Catechism of the Catholic Church and Luther's Small Catechism.

As I said above - without Catholicism - Protestantism wouldn't exist.

Our governing documents - the Constitution and Declaration of Independence - reference God and the Bible many, many times. While our government may operate without preference to one religion or another (secularism), its roots are intrinsically tied to Judeo-Christian values and teaching.

I think the clearest proof of this is that atheists commit FEWER crimes than religious people. Stats, please. I think this is a load of bull.

As for progress - just because we *can* do something doesn't mean we should, especially with science.. And, again, your ignorance of religious history shines through. Many of the branches of science we have today were started by Christians and many of them devout Catholics. Monks and monasteries made tremendous contributions to agriculture. Albertus Magnus - a Dominican - was one of the founding fathers of Chemistry. Jesuits gave Kepler opportunity to pursue his astronomy studies after Kepler was thrown out of his Protestant school.

What about the good that comes from religion? Without government mandates or the unjust redistribution of wealth, it is *religious* persons who are by far the most generous with their time and money to worthy causes.
Sunday, February 10, 2008 8:24:30 PM (Central Standard Time, UTC-06:00)
Correction - that last post was me.

And JIJARWM, if you want to call a spade a spade. Fine.

When you actually reach adulthood, let me know. Right now, all I see are the prattlings of an uninformed, immature, myopic teenager.
Sunday, February 10, 2008 8:24:50 PM (Central Standard Time, UTC-06:00)
Sorry - that was Amy.
Sunday, February 10, 2008 8:52:44 PM (Central Standard Time, UTC-06:00)
"As I said above - without Catholicism - Protestantism wouldn't exist."

Yes, if it weren't for the pope forcing little naked boys to jump out of cakes and selling indulgances, there'd be no protestantism, right? How's that for church history. They didn't mention all of that in the catechism though. Maybe I should give you guys a reading list too.

I know far more about church history than you're giving me credit for. You assume that because I disagree with you, that I'm ininformed, and then have the gaul to accuse me of being myopic. Wow. Just wow. Get over yourselves.
Sunday, February 10, 2008 10:18:43 PM (Central Standard Time, UTC-06:00)
"Whatever. That makes no sense"

Didn't think it would to you.


AS far as your reading list goes: I've probably read most of that list. I know about the Pornocracy, about the Borgia Popes, the Spanish Inquisition, and sundry abuses. Most informed Catholics do. We've never sugarcoated those parts of our history.

The Catholic Church has survived them. We'll survive this crisis. And I'm done discussing this with you.
Monday, February 11, 2008 6:34:35 AM (Central Standard Time, UTC-06:00)
"Didn't think it would to you."

I find no form of argument weaker than bland retorts that your opponent "doesn't understand." Especially when I clearly do. Objectively speaking, when we're talking about a club that has propogated "pornocracy". the Borgia Popes, the Inquisition etc., it seems clear to me that the person condemning that club understands and the person defending it because it "survived" those things is the one that doesn't get it. Which one of us is myopic again?
Monday, February 11, 2008 9:28:30 AM (Central Standard Time, UTC-06:00)
Here's a quote from Wikipedia on the Catholic scandal. "From a legal perspective, the most serious offense, aside from the incidents of child sexual abuse themselves, was the active institutional cover-up by the Roman Catholic Church's most senior Church leaders for failing to report these felonies to the police. In response to the failure to report abuse to the police, lawmakers have changed the law to make reporting of abuse to police compulsory."
Here's Wikipedia on pederasty. Given the Greco-Roman history that precedes the Judeo-Christian history, maybe the 0.2% of priests were just Roman.
And here's a 1996 Obama speech on religion and pluralism.
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