Nick:

There are approximately 700,000 Catholics - laity, priests/religious - in the Milwaukee area and 1 billion Catholics worldwide.

A fraction of them commit atrocious acts - less than a fraction of a percent - and you think it colors all of us bad? I don't think so.

This scandal was terrible and wrong and it is *innocent* people who are going to pay the price. If every single Catholic knew and did nothing about the abuse, then you'd have an argument.

For the record - Protestant clergy and many teachers have also been indicted and accused of sexual abuse. So don't think this is a "Catholic" problem - it's a people problem. And it does not undermine the teaching of the Church or invalidate it in anyway.

Nick:

I see your point. But this is the important sentence:

I think it does invalidate some of their teaching.

It does. I don't disagree. They are hypocrites in the fullest extent of the word and they have rendered null and void all they preached about. However, that's *their* fault. Not the teaching of the Church - there's a difference.

And I'm mad as hell at these b*stards who have put such a smear on the Church. I have met some of the most wonderful, faithful, people and priests who would *never* engage in such behavior. They are faithful to the teaching of the Church, and they are not hypocrites because of the actions of their fellow priests.

Their reputation has been sullied by this, they will suffer for this, too. Every Catholic will suffer for this.

Personally, I think the Bishops, priests and those in authority who covered this up should have to work until they keel over to repay the debts of the lawsuits their actions incurred. And lose any and all pension benefits, possessions, etc. They should be in jail.

No disagreement that it damages the church. However, the problem lies with the priests, and not the Church teaching - which unequivocally teaches that abuse of any kind is immoral, and that chastity is a call for all vocations outside of marriage.

But I believe the supremacy and importance you speak of is tied more directly to the Pope and the Magisterium than to individual priests because - unfortunately - you get priests of every ideology, including ones that aren't abusers that openly defy or flout Church teaching. Otherwise, liberal priests would be on the same footing as conservative priests who *do* adhere to Church teaching. I have to check and clarify that, because I think my explanation is not as full as it could be, and I will do that later this evening.

Yay for Martin Luther!

I would be curious to know if this is problem only in the American and European church or is also present in the African and Asian sees and less so in the Latin American sees. The bishops, cardinals, and seminaries in the non-western world part of the Catholic Church are considerably more fundamental in their observance and obedience to church doctrine.

The scandal, as is always the case, is less about the crime than the cover up. One wonders if bishops and cardinals more fundamental in their understanding of church teaching then the bishops of the American sees have tolerated or protected the same behavior within their sees.

It is an interesting question, but I am not sure how to find an answer. Is Archbishop Lima Peru banishing molesting priest or shuttling them about? Does he tolerate seminaries which acquire nicknames such as Notre Flame, the Theological Closet, and the Pink Palace? I wish I knew how to answer the question.

Saying "it's not the Church, it's the people" who do the bad things only makes me think of the decades of hypocrisy and closed-mindedness that brought about this phenomena in the first place. Can't anyone step forward and admit that it was a pervasive sense of culture that allowed this to happen, that swept it under the rug, that expected that a little prayer was going to cure a predator? It's rather selective thinking that allows all that's good to be bundled up and set apart. The Church is all that's bright and shiny, all that's bad can't be part of the Church by definition, so we can wash our hands... but Amy's answer is no self-examination is necessary unless every Catholic knew about the abuse and did nothing? Uh huh.

When did I say "no self-examination was necessary", John? I didn't.

But to paint the *entire* Church as guilty is wrong. Church teaching forbids what these priests did - but they, through their own perversion and free will, broke it anyway. Those who knew and did nothing - or covered it up - are equally culpable. But you clearly cannot fathom that not everyone in the Church (nor the Church's teachings) are responsible when they didn't know. Examination is necessary - specifically who we allow into the seminaries and that what's taught in our Churches is what's taught in the Catechism.

Your post is clearly calling for the Church to change its fundamental teachings. As John W. pointed out, in places where the Church is more orthodox and more conservative, this happens less (if at all). The rise of abuse is fundamentally tied to the "liberating" of the Mass after Vatican II, and the USCCB's tolerance of nonsense like liturgical dance and other liberal ideologies that do not mesh with Church teaching.

It is the invasion of popular culture that constantly attacks the Church - and not Church teaching - that is the problem here.

And I wholeheartedly predict one day the Church will not be bashed because she covered up the abuse, but because she *did something* about the abuse because the priests who did the abusing clearly have a disordered attraction to young males.

I understand that the practice of celebacy is looked at as a sacrifice to the church, but I think it ultimately ends up creating many of the problems that the church is facing. Sexual contact is a part of human nature and forcing one's self away from normal sexual contact ultimately leads to seeking out and filling that need with those individuals closest to you. Most of the priests are incredibly hororable and strong individuals who resist those urges, but the sacrifice itself is, in my opinion, in large part to blame for the situation the church is in. As I understand, the practice of celebacy was initially instituted in the early hears of the church so that if the Rome came under attack, the priests would have no family ties and could go into hiding/exile with the holy relics of the church. I think the Catholic church is long overdue in its examination of some of the traditions that are long outdated. It's not the traditions that define the church.