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Wednesday, August 01, 2007
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Bush's War

Jessica McBride (among others) is commenting on the apparent hypocrisy of Obama for wanting to invade Pakistan, and Edwards for wanting to crack down on Saudi Arabia.  I'm not surprised by this at all.  In fact, I predicted it would happen back in May and wrote a rather long post on the subject:

In the second presidential debate against Al Gore, Bush declared "I don't think our troops ought to be used for what's called nation-building".  In fact, that was a major campaign point.  He blasted Clinton and Gore for their intervention in Somalia and the Balkans.  And many Republicans backed him up, saying it was time for the United States to pull back away from being the "World's Policeman".  Ask anyone on the street today, and how many people would remember that at all?

My point is this.  When a Democrat is President, the Republicans blast the wars they participate in as ill timed and poorly managed.  Anyone who disagrees needs to look back at how Newt Gingrich's Congress went after Clinton for Somalia and Kosovo before you comment.  And now when a Republican is in charge, the Democrats are doing the same thing.

But is there really any doubt that if a Democrat were to win next year that s/he wouldn't be just as much of an interventionist as every other President in history when push comes to shove?  That power to fight a war is a lot different when you're in charge, and not just watching from the sidelines.  So while some of the nutty folks at Reason are saying that you should vote Democrat in order to avoid more war, I'm saying that any Democrat who becomes President will be just as likely to go to war as any Republican.  Republicans are just more up front about it.

This has been going on since Presidential politics began.  The current president's war was wrong and mismanaged, but mine will be so much better.  In fact, given the tone and talk of Kerry's campaign... this was a forgone conclusion.  Kerry's campaign focused on why the decision to go to war in Iraq was wrong, as if the decision was yet to be made, instead of focusing on how he would improve things in Iraq or change course.  The Democrat's learned their lesson.

The Democrat's playbook is clear.  Iraq is "Bush's War", and as much as possible will be "The Republican's War" to hurt Rudy, Thompson2, McCain (is he still running?) and the rest (except Ron Paul).  But in order to look strong on the War on Terror, they will have to find a war of their very own.  Obama is picking on Pakistan and Edwards is picking Saudi Arabia.  Iran is too closely tied to Iraq to be a good target, so they're avoiding it.  It will be interesting to see who attracts the ire of Mrs. Clinton.

# Posted at 12:46 PM by Nick  |  Comment Feed Link 21 Comments  |  No Trackbacks

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Wednesday, August 01, 2007 2:52:47 PM (Central Daylight Time, UTC-05:00)
Politics by hindsight... Such an easy thing to do, so divisive, and such crap.

Thanks Nick.
Wednesday, August 01, 2007 4:40:10 PM (Central Daylight Time, UTC-05:00)
You're right, but I think it can also be said that Democrats are often eager to intervene militarily, for humanitarian reasons, when there is little national interest at stake (Haiti, Somalia, Kosovo, and now Darfur), but when there is a clear national interest at stake, they turn pacifist (Grenada, Panama, Iraq I, Iraq II).

I realize Obama's latest pronouncement doesn't fit this pattern, but it does seem a bit contradictory that he wants to invade a quasi-ally (Pakistan), while having no-precondition talks with Iran, Cuba, Venezuela, and every other dyed-in-the-wool anti-American dictatorship.
PapayaSF
Wednesday, August 01, 2007 4:40:26 PM (Central Daylight Time, UTC-05:00)
Darfur? Heh.
Wednesday, August 01, 2007 5:47:58 PM (Central Daylight Time, UTC-05:00)
Papaya's comments show why no one in their right mind should listen to cons and their fellow travelers anymore. They make NO SENSE!

So Dems don't want to go to war "when there is a clear national interest at stake, they turn pacifist (Grenada, Panama, Iraq I, Iraq II)." What the heck was the "clear national interset in Panama (curiously coming a week after the Beirut barracks bombing)and Grenada? Was Grenada set toi invade Miami? Panama have its eyes on California? And Iraq II . . . please don't get me started!

And "it does seem a bit contradictory that he wants to invade a quasi-ally (Pakistan), while having no-precondition talks with Iran, Cuba, Venezuela, and every other dyed-in-the-wool anti-American dictatorship."

How many Americans have been killed by people having sanctuary in Iran, Cuba, and Venezuela? Zero! Where is Osama? Waziristan. If you cons don't see the relative merit is applying force where the real threat is (Waziristan) and ignoring the talk-talk-talkers in Iran, etc., then you have learned absolutely nothing from Saddam and Iraq. Which is why I am not to keen on any cons getting the presidency in 2008!
B-Rob
Wednesday, August 01, 2007 6:14:46 PM (Central Daylight Time, UTC-05:00)
B-Rob,
Iran is talk-talk-talk.....with Nuclear intentions/capability????

What continent are you living on?
Duke
Wednesday, August 01, 2007 6:26:12 PM (Central Daylight Time, UTC-05:00)
B-Rob, it was in our national interest to not have another Marxist dictatorship in the Caribbean (Grenada) nor an anti-American one controlling the Panama canal. Seems pretty clear to me.

Interesting that you are so sure Osama is in Waziristan. Maybe, but he hasn't even made an inarguably recent video for years now. And when President Obama invades Pakistan, you do realize this puts the nominally-allied-with-us Musharraf in a tough spot, correct? And that his strongest opposition is the local Islamists, who would love an excuse for a coup? And that Pakistan has nukes? Think strategically here: is that really a country you want to stir up with an invasion?
PapayaSF
Wednesday, August 01, 2007 6:34:37 PM (Central Daylight Time, UTC-05:00)
http://www.strategypage.com/militaryforums/72-6740.aspx

When Obama was running for Senate in 2004, he said pretty much the same thing, though no one really paid attention to it.

For me, anyone who refers to "surgical strikes" should be disqualified from talking about miltary matters.
Wednesday, August 01, 2007 6:53:06 PM (Central Daylight Time, UTC-05:00)
The landing in Somalia happened under GHWB's administration. Clinton doesn't deserve the blame for making the decision to help those folks out. He only deserves the blame for screwing it up with a capital F.

I just have to question the mental horsepower of someone who'd rather invade Pakistan, who's psuedo buddies of ours now, and ignore Iran. Simply mindless.
Arlo
Wednesday, August 01, 2007 6:55:42 PM (Central Daylight Time, UTC-05:00)
Maybe nanofabricated strikes. Assembled with great precision. Carefully executed
Wednesday, August 01, 2007 7:17:38 PM (Central Daylight Time, UTC-05:00)
"What the heck was the "clear national interset in Panama (curiously coming a week after the Beirut barracks bombing)and Grenada?"

Maybe we wanted to steal their time machine:

Beirut Barracks Bombing---10/23/83<<----

Panama invasion---12/20/89<<----
careful reader
Wednesday, August 01, 2007 7:24:41 PM (Central Daylight Time, UTC-05:00)
Hmmm...
So now we can add Obama and Edwards to the list of "Chicken Hawks"?
Charles O
Wednesday, August 01, 2007 7:48:19 PM (Central Daylight Time, UTC-05:00)
"What the heck was the "clear national interset in Panama (curiously coming a week after the Beirut barracks bombing)and Grenada?"

In what world is one week equal to nearly 6 years? If you pay as little attention to detail to the rest of your assertions as you do to that bit of easily verifiable information then it pretty much renders your entire opinion moot. Or put it another way, you are just talking out of your ass with little basis in fact.
Faith+1
Wednesday, August 01, 2007 8:24:44 PM (Central Daylight Time, UTC-05:00)
The other thing to remember with Obama's public threats to Pakistan is the impression it gives to our allies and enemies. Throwing Musharraf under the bus to sound tough on the GWOT would, if Obama was President now, cause other marginal allies (i.e. all the 'Stans where we base alot of logistical support for the GWOT)to back away from doing business with us. Not to mention the fact that Musharraf is truly in a tough spot politically speaking. Most of the Pakistan populace thinks tribally, not nationally, but a US invasion would probably fire up the Pakistani patriotic juices. Making public threats like this just goes to show that Obama is nowhere ready for prime time.
Chris S
Wednesday, August 01, 2007 8:26:41 PM (Central Daylight Time, UTC-05:00)
Anthony, some of those "surgical strikes" of Clinton's did a world of good of "containing" Saddam, didnt they? *sarcasm*
Chris S
Wednesday, August 01, 2007 9:27:57 PM (Central Daylight Time, UTC-05:00)
Where was our clear national interest in Panama? Are you kidding?

I guess you never noticed that canal thingy that helps control trade routes. Or the forces we had stationed there at the time. Sheesh...
Russ
Wednesday, August 01, 2007 10:06:04 PM (Central Daylight Time, UTC-05:00)
Talk to our enemies, invade our allies.

What a great slogan.
monkeyboy
Thursday, August 02, 2007 12:51:28 AM (Central Daylight Time, UTC-05:00)
Good news about this Dem's crazy national security scheme - he doesn't really mean it. Bad news - they don't mean anything else they might say either. It's simply whatever the audience they are standing in front of is likely to want to hear.

Don't try to figure out the Dems' positions on national security - they don't have any, and don't see the need to have any. It is just not a big priority with them - like "whatever". So if you like playing the lottery, vote for a Dem for Commander-in-Chief. But remember, in this lottery, if you don't win you lose more than $2: you and your family may well die.
sherlock
Thursday, August 02, 2007 5:33:11 AM (Central Daylight Time, UTC-05:00)
Vote for Obama and Talk to our enemies but invade our allies.
davod
Thursday, August 02, 2007 7:40:38 AM (Central Daylight Time, UTC-05:00)
Nick - Yes Bush did take a stance against nation-building back in campaign 2000, but that was prior to the smoking crater in lower Manhattan and 3000 slaughtered Americans. I have to believe that changed the equation greatly.
Brad
Thursday, August 02, 2007 11:17:30 AM (Central Daylight Time, UTC-05:00)
Yes Bush did take a stance against nation-building back in campaign 2000, but that was prior to the smoking crater in lower Manhattan and 3000 slaughtered Americans. I have to believe that changed the equation greatly.

Likewise, arguing that, say, we needed to free Korea from Japanese control would have made very little sense before Pearl Harbor.

Incidentally, I once had a friend from Jamaica who told me that the news of the invasion of Granada was one of the greatest days of his life. Quite a lot of people in the Caribbean were convinced that island after island was doomed to fall to Communism, because America had done nothing to stop it in Cuba and now Grenada...
Ars Sine Artificio
Thursday, August 02, 2007 5:28:25 PM (Central Daylight Time, UTC-05:00)
A war in Iraq, a war in Afghanistan, a war against terror and another one in Pakistan? Estupendendously stupid

Nonetheless, shrewd politicing by the Obama, he knows its never going to happen, but it makes him look like a tough guy and siezes the initiative from La Hilarious, everyones talking about him.

Do you think the American electorate is yet sophisticated enough to accept a black man as jeffe of The White House ? He sounds a bit too much like 'Osama'. Dont you think that will confuse a nation who cant tell the difference between Fox news and Simpsons News ?

The rest of the world are laughing our bollocks off !
Non-US poster
bonkers
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