The World According to Nick
Politics, News, Photography, and Triathlons... What don't I talk about?
Sunday, July 08, 2007
<< Le Tour de Non France Why All Good Christians Should Be Libertarians >>
Not As Cut and Dry As You Think

Apparently everyone is getting a big charge out of this graphic provided by The Early Spin blog regarding the number of murders in India vs. the United States.

indiacrime

Apparently this is because Eugene Kane said this today:

He wanted to stress he felt the Juneteenth Day attack was not racially motivated, blaming it instead on out-of-control young people who would have attacked anyone. As someone raised in another country, he has become accustomed to the level of violence in America, which is unlike his native India, where a country half the size of America with more than twice the population has dramatically fewer murders each year.

People are saying that he hasn't done his fact checking... but I'm not sure if that's true.  I say this because when you look at these exact same statistics on a per capita basis, you see that the United States is #24 with 0.042802 per 1,000 people  while India is #26 with 0.0344083 per 1,000 people.  That's because India's population is more than 3 and a half times larger than that of the United States.  So India's murder rate is lower than the United States, even though they are a much more densely packed nation.  There are about 10 times the number of people per square kilometer in India vs. the United States.

Now then, I don't want to get in an argument about who's culture is worse here.  Certainly the concept of "honor killings" against women which is still common in India is both horrifying and beyond comprehension.  And murders, no matter where they occur, are awful and heart wrenching things which destroy societies bit by bit.  But before you start bashing someone for not having proper statistics, be sure yours are right.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to take off my Engineer hat again for the rest of the day so I can stop being pissed off by people misusing statistics.

# Posted at 4:20 PM by Nick  |  Comment Feed Link 11 Comments  |  No Trackbacks

 Add to del.icio.us |  Digg this Post | Filed Under: Misc

Sunday, July 08, 2007 4:39:08 PM (Central Daylight Time, UTC-05:00)
Hey Nick,

Where does Kane say the murder RATE is lower?

He very clearly says that India has fewer murders each year. That's just simply not true. That's all I'm trying to point out.

Plus, even if he was trying to compare murder rates, I don't think 24th vs 26th is DRAMATICALLY lower.

My point was not really to discuss the murders, but to point out that he's taking another chance to make the United States look bad and to do it, he was being fast and loose with his language.
Sunday, July 08, 2007 4:47:41 PM (Central Daylight Time, UTC-05:00)
I think you're parsing his language very tightly for no other reason than to take a shot at him, and it's a very disingenuous point to make on your part. He said there are "fewer murders" each year. You assumed that meant "fewer number of murders", but he never said that either. Given the overall context of what he was saying, I think assuming murder rate is a fair reading, and is correct.

Now if you want to complain about his article, then complain about his overall point... not some stupid little statistical point, which you got wrong anyway. Talk about how India still has honor killings. Talk about how female circumcision still occurs there (though it is on the decline).

What I find the most amusing at how you're bashing Kane, is that half the time you guys are saying that Kane doesn't think there is a thug culture in Milwaukee that is corrupting the youth there. But here is actually making comparisons that show how bad the culture in Milwaukee is compared to other places, and you bash him for saying that!
Sunday, July 08, 2007 5:10:33 PM (Central Daylight Time, UTC-05:00)
I'm not parsing Nick. I'm not removing any of his words. (Unless now the word "Parsing" means quoting him exactly, and then I guess I am parsing.) It's who you are making assumptions about his meaning. Either way, I'm still not wrong on the statistical point. There are more murders in India than in the United States. Do you dispute that?

If I have 10 dollars and you have 5 dollars, and someone asks "Between the two of you, who has fewer dollars in your wallet?" , do you think the person wants to know the answer based on the amount of money we each have in our wallets or does he want to know the answer based on how much money we have in our wallets in relation to our overall incomes?

I also notice in your defense of him you don't bother to quote him properly. He says there are "dramatically fewer murders"... not just the "fewer murders" that you stated. 24th overall to 26th overall wouldn't be dramatic in my book, but hey... now we are just parsing.

Oh, and yes... I do not like Eugene Kane.
Sunday, July 08, 2007 5:53:57 PM (Central Daylight Time, UTC-05:00)
Yes Dan... it's all about interpretation of numbers. But given that vast difference in the populations of the two countries, the more valid statistic is the proportional number of murders, and not the absolute number.
Sunday, July 08, 2007 9:27:07 PM (Central Daylight Time, UTC-05:00)
I mean really Dan... if there was a city with a population of 500,000 with 100 murders per year, and another town with a population of 200 with 100 murders per year, which place would you rather live? Same total number of murders. Would you consider them equally as safe?

My point isn't to say that Eugene's overall attitude is correct, just that I hate the misuse of statistics. So many of our political problems are caused by incorrect use of statistics. Global warming fanaticism is one of my favorites, but there are others.
Monday, July 09, 2007 8:32:06 AM (Central Daylight Time, UTC-05:00)
Nick, Kane should have written murder RATE if he meant murder RATE. He wrote "fewer murders." I have no doubt that he knew the rate was lower and not the overall number of murders. It's simply a case of sloppy journalism on his part.

When I read this column, I was actually surprised that there were "dramatically fewer murders" in India than in the United States. That floored me. But it didn't surprise me to find out that what Kane was presenting as fact in an attempt to make a point wasn't true. And with something so easily demonstrated to be a falsehood, he should have been more careful as a professional journalist.
Monday, July 09, 2007 9:28:53 AM (Central Daylight Time, UTC-05:00)
A more interesting question is, why does Nick keep defending Eugene?

I see a man-crush.
Monday, July 09, 2007 9:35:21 AM (Central Daylight Time, UTC-05:00)
As I said in an earlier comment Fred, my purpose here is not to defend Kane. Though I don't have the same level of general anger about him that many others do. My point here is to defend statistical accuracy.

So many political wars are being fought using statistics incorrectly. Things that you for instance talk about very passionately against... like global warming... are fueled by bad statistics, and twisting of numbers incorrectly.

So when I see people use statistics this way, I will call them on it, even if it means that I look like I'm defending someone who I generally don't agree with. The ends do not justify the means just to go after Kane.
Monday, July 09, 2007 4:44:11 PM (Central Daylight Time, UTC-05:00)
Statistical accuracy has everything to do within the context it was prestented. It was presented by number, not per capita so that is the context that counts.

I'm sticking with man-crush.
Monday, July 09, 2007 5:28:43 PM (Central Daylight Time, UTC-05:00)
And I think that's an unfair reading purely for the sake of going after him.
Monday, July 09, 2007 9:59:27 PM (Central Daylight Time, UTC-05:00)
And I think you have a man-crush.

Euegene writes purely for effect. He could have stated per capita, he did not.

Now he is tying Jude to McGee Jr. Victim buddies in the same building at the same time.

Keep playing his game Nick, the man is scum.
Comments are closed.


© Copyright 2012 Nick Schweitzer
Powered By newtelligence dasBlog 1.9.7067.0
Theme Based on Design By maystar