Last week I wrote in response to something Patrick McIlheran wrote, and although it wasn't the point of the post, mentioned that I didn't buy into the idea that our natural rights come from God.  John McAdams responded in the comments with this (among other things), and I felt the need to respond:

But I do wonder where notions like "natural rights" and "human dignity" can come from except from God. Or if not the Christian God, some being equally hard to prove to people who don't want to believe it him/her/it.

As for Christianity and morality: I do think that Christian *societies* are more moral (and yes, I know all about the evils done in Christian societies).

I suppose this really goes right along with the evolution doesn't it?  There are people who believe that God created man and the Earth, and people who believe that humans evolved through a long process of natural selection.  So why is it so hard to fathom that people might believe that natural rights might have evolved in the same way?  In fact, I think it's an easier sell.  Rights aren't a thing I can hold in my hand after all... they're an idea, a concept, a thought.  I suppose I lump myself in with those who don't think that God is the only one who can create ideas like this.  I think humans are pretty smart, and perfectly capable of amazing ideas absent God.  And I think the idea that a form of natural selection occurring in regards to rights is a compelling one, given the history of man.

Saying that Christian "societies" are more moral is actually rather convenient for you given that our Christian society happens to be moral today.  There were times when Christians didn't live a very moral life and did some pretty horrendous things, and in some cases still do.  While some may find the idea of Camelot to be rather romantic, I wouldn't want to live during Medieval Times, or during the Inquisition, or suffer some of the punishments that good moral Christians thought were appropriate in Salem.  I think that automatically saying that Christianity is what leads to moral behavior doesn't have a lot of proof behind it.

Rather, I think good moral behavior comes from having general wealth that everyone shares, security, and predictable law.  Where you have those things, you have good moral behavior.  Where those things are absent, morals become something that people are willing to sacrifice.  I'm not trying to dismiss Christian values mind you.  I grew up on them.  I think that Christianity teaches a lot of good things.  But I also believe it is possible to learn all of these things outside Christianity, or even without believing in some kind of higher power.  I believe that atheists are perfectly capable of living a moral life, and passing those values on to their children.  Same goes for Buddhists, who don't believe in a God.  There are also plenty of Christian societies that don't act morally, because they lack those important prerequisites.

So where do our natural rights come from?  They come from us.  When you have predictable law, security, and the ability to provide for yourself in a meaningful way, then it becomes convenient to treat people as you would like to be treated.  You don't need God to believe in the golden rule, you just need to believe in equality.  If I want to be treated a certain way, then I have to be willing to treat others the same.  As long as we don't live in a society where some people are treated better than others (have rights I don't have), then natural rights are easy.

I believe you should have free speech because I want to speak.  I believe murder is wrong because I don't want to die.  When I live in a society where I can get up, go to work, and earn an honest paycheck to provide for a family, all these things are easy.  When there is a good chance that you could die on your way to work because some punk wants to go on a shooting rampage from a car, it's not hard to understand why some people would ask "what's the point in treating people as I want to be treated, when they want to kill me?"

As I said before... its harder to have faith in people than it is to have faith in God sometimes.